The Wisdom of Suffering with Brett Erik

Welcome back to the Alchemist Library Podcast.Today I'm joined with Brett Eric.Brett is a online writer who has amassed almost over200,000followers on Twitter.He is a quite fascinating human being,and in this episode we talk more philosophy and just living a life well lived.It is a great episode and I'm sure you guys are going to love it Now,catch you guys inside.Peace.I saw you tweet today asking your audience what some of their favorite accounts are on Twitter.Who,who are those people for you right now that,um,are your favorite follows?Mm.Oh man.Well,um,probably my favorite,my favorite tweets come from Ego Drive.My boy Habibi.Shout out.Um,he's,I've been,I've been,Meeting and talking with him since I was a really small account since I first started.And the man behind the account is just an absolute stud.So,uh,really smart.And he works with his brother Dent as Leo,uh,who's,uh,Atlas.So Atlas and Ego are both just absolutely bringing the heat and they're not afraid to step into the controversy and not afraid to be a little bit provocative.And I think that that's needed in some cases.And so,yeah,I really respect those guys.Um,I got a shout to my boys,uh,Taylin Taylin Simmons.He's the another guy I absolutely love.Um,Dale Thomas and I work with both of those guys at Ghostly.I feel really fortunate that I get to work with those guys.It's a real blessing.And then,um,you know,Dakota.Dakota also just an awesome guy.Absolutely.I love a sense of humor.Dakota's a funny dude.Dakota is a funny dude.There is a few.We,me and Dakota did a podcast.And there was a few moments in the,in the episode where he said,just some stuff that,that made me absolutely crack up.He was try,he was trying to think of the name of the statue of David and he was like,what's that statue,you know,with the guy with the dick?You know,um,she's like,dude,uh,he's a funny guy for sure.Um,I love it.Yeah.But Ego drive,that is,ego drive is an awesome account.Uh,I love his perspective on things and we traditionally have this view as the ego being like a very negative sense.But me and him did a,had a conversation and he was describing it to me that a strong ego and like what he describes as or how he defines an ego is an honest ego.And he,the analogy he used was,if you're going into war,you would want to know what weapons you have in your bag and at your arsenal.Um,and that allows you to plan correctly and to have a.Deliberate approach and taking that perspective just like self-awareness is,um,very interesting.And he's one of the few guys that that really writes prolifically on that topic.Absolutely,man.Well,I,I thought about this as well.It's basically like any spirituality that says like,um,you're better off without a body.It's the same thing.Like there's a lot of spiritualities that kind of push some sort of dualism where it's like,The soul is holy and righteous.The body is dirty and something like that.But actually,that's a betrayal of the system.So anybody who's saying like,well,you gotta just conquer your ego.It's like,dude,you're not respecting the fact that it's a synergistic system.That's why I love ego,because you,you have to find balance with it.You can't,you can't just,uh,neglect a piece of yourself and assume that that's gonna just,um,it's that that's gonna push you forward in any meaningful sense.It's the same as being like,well,you know what the problem is.My right hand is,is the problem.If I cut off my right hand,then I won't have a problem.And that's absolutely false.I love that perspective.You're better off without a body is definitely the wrong way of thinking about it.But as I think about so many,um,ways people approach philosophy or spirituality,I should say,that's the approach that they take.That the,that the body is this,uh,meat vessel and is like almost unholy in a sense.And you should rid yourself of your bodily desires.Yeah,that's exactly right.And it's,um,like I said,it's that dualism and I think,uh,yeah,you know,who is some other accounts that I really like.I love Alex Mathers.If you see his stuff.Dan Goldfield,other great guy,Dr.22.He's,he's awesome too.He's got a lot of stuff.Um,brother Burr some hot takes.Those guys,they,they're some at Tates Boys,you know what I mean?Um,and then,uh,Cole,Blackburn,legacy Builder.Yeah.That those are,that's kinda like my,uh,my soul pack right there.Oh,Justin Scott too.Yeah.Mm.Oh.And Johnny Brown.Dude,you gotta include,you got,I'm like running through my,basically I'm running through my telegram right now.I'm like,I forget those boys.I don't think I know Johnny Brown.Oh,you gotta check him out.I gotta check him out.He does fitness and nutrition.Dude.The guy's profile pick when you see him,you're like,oh,this looks like a nice guy.Dude,I met him in Miami.The guy's yoked.The guy is,is,he's just a,a beast man.I'm like,dude,you gotta take a different profile picture,man.You're just stacked.So anyways,uh,yeah,check out Johnny Brown stuff.He's,he's got a lot of great stuff.We'll definitely check out his stuff.And so a word you've used a few times in this episode is dualism.Yeah.And like this idea that it's almost like yin and yang,correct?Like we have these two polar energies.And kinda walking that line is,is where you find.Meaning,and that's really the way to do it,is by balancing out these two energies.Is that,is that how you would define,how would you define dualism?Yeah.No,I wouldn't define it that way.Um,the reason being is that,uh,dualism essentially is an articulation that there are multiple realities,and in this case,two right,two fundamental realities.There's below and above.That's,that's about as simple as you could put it.And most of the time what people say in those cases are there's the physical world,but then there's the spiritual world,right?So the,there's like in pla in platonics terms,like Aristotelian terms the world,right?The many things and,and Plato's terms.It's like the platonic forms,the objective truth.There's our experience,truth,and then objective truth.And there's a,uh,a distance between those in some regard.I think dualism,as I define it,as I've understood it,is the idea that we see reality in some sense,um,on one level,but that there is a different level to see reality at.And,um,and that the broken down into its simplest form is two.Right.Um,and I think this is,this is pretty pervasive in,uh,Christian spheres too.You'll,you'll hear it a lot about like,um,The flesh versus like the soul or something like that.And,um,and I don't think that that's,I don't think it's wrong.I just think that it's kind of a clunky model.To be honest.I don't,I don't,I wouldn't say that it's incorrect because it's the same as like,if you're like,uh,uh,how long is this branch?Well,it's two feet long.It's like,okay,yeah.But.Two feet is a pretty rough estimate,right?You could break it down into inches,you could break it down into centimeters,microns,you could break it.I mean,it's a three dimensional object,right?But you can say it's two feet long,right?It's just a really clunky measurement tool.So I think that's what I would say about dualism is that it's just not exactly,um,it's helpful when you're first starting to understand that there is separateness in some regard.But I think that's about as far as I take it.So what do you think a better model model would be?Yeah.Um,I think it's,I think it's more about layers,right?Because one,one of the images that I keep coming back to is a fractal.Do you know what a fractal is?It's a mathematical,it's a repeating mathematical equation.You ever seen these?I think so,yeah.But I,I,I don't know if I'm mistaken,but I'm thinking of almost like,Almost like a snowflake.Yeah,that's exactly right.Yeah,yeah,yeah,yeah.So picture,um,a lot of them look sort of like a snowflake or a spiral,but what it is,is a repeated mathematical equation that when you run it for long enough,so it,it looks like it doesn't have any patterns until you run it for a long time and then all of a sudden you realize that these mathematical patterns emerge again and again,and again and again in these grand cycles.Right?Um,so I think the way that,the way that I see.Our spirituality is kind of like that,almost like a,almost like a spiral,right?An upward spiral.And that,for example,you come to some realizations,um,in Zen and in Christianity and um,in other practices that you come to the same realization and then you leave that realization for a different realization and then you come back to that initial realization,but with a different context.So it actually means something different.You know what I mean?So,for example,absolutely.There's a,there's whole practices about defining how everything is one,everything is interconnected.Everything is one.The oneness,right?The do.Okay,well,once you go into that and you really integrate that,one of the first moves that happens on,on the other side is that now,okay,but the reality is there's also separate men.And it,it reminds me of this concept of,of,when you talk about fractals,it reminds me of sacred geometry and,um,some of these weird situations and coincidences,almost like coincidences that go beyond just mere coincidence.I'm blanking for an example here,but there is the distance between the sun and the moon is130moons and130moons fit into the sun.I forget what the exact measurement are,but is,but there are some very odd and strange mathematical coincidences when it comes to this world that we live in.What do you make of,of all that stuff?Many of the ways that we measure things are,are pretty arbitrary.But I think one of the,one of the powerful lessons I've learned is,um,it's in the,that's the ratios.Ratios are where a lot of that,uh,kind of interesting,kind of like the golden geometry stuff happens is,is in the ratios between things.And I think that life reflects that as well.Meaning,um,there's like ways that you can live in the world that are out of balance.Or ways that are in balance.And I think,I think probably the reason that I'm interested in fractals is because I think there are in many ways these grand,these grand repeating principles that we,we see a piece of and we think,ah,here it is.And then we continue to move through life.And that,that,that reality starts to not work like it used to.And then we find another one and then we say,ah,here it is.But then we realize if we zoom out far enough,we realize that they repeat and that they are actually all coin.They coincide as well.You know what I mean?Yeah.That,that makes sense to me.And it reminds me of,I think,um,something Jordan Peterson,if I'm,if I'm not mistaken,I've heard him speak about where,um,if you look at these ancient religions and philosophies,It's almost like just this rule book to live that people have discovered based on years and years of trial and error,and it just keeps getting reiterated and changed to make sense for the times.And I,I like that perspective.It's um,it's a unique way of thinking about things.Yeah.I would say too that the way that we see early religious.Epiphany and realization is extremely skewed,right?We,we look at them and we think,what,what a bunch of primitive,immature humans,they,they didn't really understand reality,and I would actually greatly challenge that.I've had this discussion with many people because when you're sitting.In an air conditioned room and your life is not in immediate danger at any point.You're not gonna get pounced on by a giant cat at any point,right?Like picture,if you lived with that level of death,present all around you all the time,right?You are.You're literally praying people,people don't realize like,okay,so.I,my,uh,I think my main,my main point here is that people are too quick to dismiss the lessons of these early,early,um,religious teachings.And they dismiss them as primitive and say,you know,oh,well,they thought,okay,well,yeah,they thought the earth was,I don't know,they thought the earth was flat or the earth was round,or they thought that some scientific thing that I happened to disagree with for some menial,small thing.But if you zoom out and you actually engage with the,with the content,you realize that what it is,is it's actually just an articulation of a way in which the story continues,cuz the chances that you die by,by doing incorrect behavior.We have a lot more wiggle room,like way more wiggle room.Like if you break your arm,you're okay.You're gonna go get it fixed.It used to be that if you broke your arm,you die,or you lose your arm.You know what I mean?I'm talking thousands of years ago.I'm not talking like a hundred years ago.You know what I mean?Yep.Of course.So the pressures on your belief systems,they weren't like,whether or not they make you feel good,which is what we do now.It's like,I just don't resonate with that.It's like there's no,there's no resonance.No one's talking about resonance.They're talking about whether or not their society dies or survives.That's the pressure.And so I think we get kind of,we,we kind of.It comes down to preference these days,which I think is just an complete artifact.I think if you spend time with the text and realize like what you are and what life is really like.I think,uh,one thing I recommend for people is I don't,don't come to any conclusions about religion on a full stomach.Yeah.Fast.Yeah,fast.That's a great point.Fast,fast for a few days.Figure out who,figure out what it feels like to actually be hungry.Because if you've never fasted,you don't even know what you are.That's powerful.It reminds me of the quote,like,uh,there's no atheist in a foxhole.It's very simple concept,which is that when you have those pressures,oh,go ahead.No,go,go on.Oh,just that those pressures actually are,uh,extremely important that they actually shape you in meaningful ways.Not,not just in ways that are like,so we,we think we understand things as in terms of our.Logic and our mental models of understanding things,but embodying something is a completely different skillset.So for example,saying the words,fasting for seven days,saying those words,versus on day six,the way that your brain works and feels it's different,right?And that's obvious,right?We know that.We know that intuitively,but at the same time we,a lot of religious,um,like a lot of people,they come to Buddhism and they say,okay,yes,life is suffering.That's step number one.And I'm like,yeah,but ta pause there for a second.What does the word suffering mean to you?Because many of us,you know,and on a,uh,this is maybe kind of coming across a little judgmental.But there are many of us who have experienced like true suffering.And also there are many of us who have really haven't,who really haven't.We've been,we who have been shielded by society or by their family or by fortune from really understanding what hardship feels like and what it is,what it feels like embodied in the body.And without that definition,I mean,notice how all of the religious figures,all of the major religious figures were either outcast,exiled,all of them fasted for a long time,right?All of them were persecuted.Those are the,that's the,that is the environment of spiritual alignment.Notice how none of them were like sitting on a cushion smoking a hookah content.None of them,you know what I mean?Like,so I think there's a reality there that we need to,we need to kind of,um,grapple with a little bit.So I like to,I like to push people into a space where they think it's easy.It's easy to get really cognitive about these realities,but I think that's actually a flaw.Hmm.It's quite interesting.I think I saw on Twitter the other day that you were doing a three day fast.What,what's the longest fast that,that you've done?I did,seven days was the longest I've done.Wow.Yeah,but that's,what'd you learn from that experience?Oh,um,I would say the main thing I learned was,um,I didn't know how good my brain could feel.It felt like I was,uh,it felt like a veil had fallen off of my eyes legitimately.That's when I wrote on that,like,uh,five to seven days into a fast is the best I've ever felt.Yeah,cognitively in my body,like emotionally,that's the,the most grounded and peaceful I've ever felt.Wow.It's powerful.I mean,I'm,I've messed around with like ketosis.Sure.Somewhat.So I do get that,and I'm sure that those ketones are firing at a whole different level at five to seven days in,so I could surely imagine.But.Even when I just think back on,like,I have one journal entry that sticks out to me Yeah.As being like,the most prolific I've ever wrote,uh,wrote,and it was written midway through like a two day fast.It was then like hour40or something like that.Yep.I definitely,you could just feel this certain clarity of thought and of clear headedness that you just don't get in when your stomach is full.Yeah.And our40is brutal.That's like some of the hardest times.Interesting.It sounds weird,but it actually gets easier after the fir,after the second and third day,it actually gets way easier.You just get deeper into it.It's kind of like,uh,many people,if they're going on a plant medicine journey,the,the trip up meaning the,the,the trip into the medicine is a lot of times it's really rocky,but then once you hit your peak,then you ride the peak.There's a peak with fasting too,and it's usually three to three to five days is when people hit their,I I,I don't know,we'll call it a peak mentally and emotionally and yeah,dude,the,the dark night of the soul man.Day two,you're actually hungry and your stomach is angry at you,and you're like,you're actually grappling with the fact that you're saying no many of the times.Um,One of the reasons why I encourage people to try it is because I'm like,you don't really realize what,what you know,we'll,we'll call'em,um,maladaptive forces,or you can call'em demons or inner inner struggles that people are wrestling with.You don't realize which ones are running your life until you stop feeding them,and all of a sudden,you know,you stop eating.All of a sudden your brain is like,you're just doing this for attention.Like,oh,there you are.You know what I mean?And then you hear,you hear the same,uh,that same voice as like,you know,even if you succeed at this,you're not gonna,you're not gonna prove anything to anybody.You're still a whatever.And you're like,the,the trick is when you get deep into those medicines,like,um,like that,that you just observe that and you let that be,but you don't try and you're not trying to push it around.You're not trying to force anything with it.But people think that they're like,they understand who they are.I highly recommend just.Just skip one meal and see how you,see,how you feel.Uh,most people I talk to have never even skipped a single meal.Not at least not intentionally.You know what I mean?Yeah.And even just like when you're in one of those faceted states,you find yourself almost just like lingering around the kitchen.You start to fully understand how big of a role food plays in your life.And how it almost causes like,I don't wanna say a meaning crisis,because that sounds way too extreme,but you just No,that does you,you understand what I mean by that,right?Like there is a certain,what do I even do with myself?Okay.Going back to the primitive religions,it's like almost,almost every primitive religion worship the son in some form.And we look back and we're like,oh,that's just,you know,That's just some form of,uh,I don't know,kind of like nature worship.And I'm like,dude,you have no,you just,you don't understand that it actually is the son that provides us every ounce of life we have.Like they actually knew something better than you do,which is like,you know,I asked somebody,uh,a while ago,I was talking to'em about where milk comes from,and it was like,it was a kid and they turned,they're like,oh,it comes from a carton.I'm like,you don't get it.You don't get life.That's a dangerous thing to think,right?Yeah.I mean,we're so disconnected in so many ways,right?It's like,that's right.I mean,I,I,I was even having a conversation with somebody and the idea that All Milk comes from female cows.They were like,oh,I,I,I've never really,I've never really realized that and that this is like a full adult,not that they didn't know.But they just hilarious.Never put two and two together,you know,because they're so disconnected from their food.I think that the closer you become aligned with how we were meant to live,and I'm sure that we were meant to fast for periods of time when,when there was scarcity of food and getting sunlight and having your feet on the grass.I mean,all these things.When you're disconnected to nature,you don't realize how big of a role they play in your wellness.But when you return back,you really realize that these things are so fundamental into what makes you human and what makes you happy.Yeah.One of my models exactly like that,one of my models is branches,high roots deep,right?So if you wanna reach up,you gotta reach down.So if you wanna reach up and have,um,these,you know,um,increase your,your business,increase your,uh,capacity as a,as a friend or as an adult,or as an athlete or a businessman,whatever,you gotta be willing to also reach down.Right?Um,another way,I think Rumi said that what he said,um,or it might have been Carl Yung actually,but he said,um,in order to reach heaven,your,your roots have to reach hell yeah.That's Carl Yung.That's a powerful one.Yeah,that's an insane quote really,because the concept there is that you have to integrate a level of darkness and a level of mystery and a level of,uh,yeah.If you're thinking in dualistic terms,the body,you have to integrate the fact that you have an operating system,which is a physical manifestation that ages and it hurts and it protests.Right.It's,it's just strange to me.And I think in the context of all this,uh,Of all the,kind of like the future stuff,AI stuff,um,kind of like where society and our,our,the forces that push us forward are pushing us towards,right,our curiosity and our desire for higher and higher leverage with our AC actions,right?So if we could in one move,um,if we could gather enough food for a year in one move as a human,I think all humans would basically do that.You know what I mean?Because it's just a high leverage move.So for,for example,if you look at the societies that did well in,in the old days,um,old days,meaning like10,000years ago,5,000years ago,if you look a lot of them,that,that did really well,were able to streamline their food sources so that it didn't take as much energy to gather a week's worth or a year's worth of food.So then you have other things like art coming up,right?Because they have time,because they're,they're operating on a higher leverage position and a lot of it is just positioning.Um,but as things move forward,I think people,there's a danger that people who who are diving into like the online worlds are also neglecting their body.And I think the deeper that you're diving into those online spaces,AI spaces,Twitter,You need.Your branches also need,they need to reach a heaven,but your,your,uh,roots need to reach out.Like you need to be exercising,you need to be outside,you need to remember your operating system.Right.Um,and I kind of wonder for how long that will be,but at least for right now,I think that's the case there.There could come a time where our operating system,we just perfect it and we got it.You know what I mean?Yeah.But we're definitely far from that as of right now.And.Suffering is still required,right?Like,um,yeah,that's the,that's the point.Yeah.Yeah,of course.And it's,um,it's some truth.It's like as above,so below almost like what we were talking about before.Right.I love that quote from you.And it's so well,so well said.And it just reminds me of like David Goggins,like you'd look at a man like that who's achieving these incredible feats and he has such a fundamental understanding and almost an enlightened point of view,right.Of this.And knowing that his suffering is going to lead to salvation.I think Goggins is a fascinating one.I think Goggins is a perfect example of,I would say,how to respond to insurmountable suffering.Cuz the reality is that his,uh,his story is so,is so bizarre and outlandish.And the amount of hardship that he endured,it's like he has to move that energy in some regard.And the way that he moves it is,uh,by being Goggins,you know what I mean?Absolutely.Yeah.And also I don't,I don't think there's a lot of people that I've talked to about him that,you know,they,they resonate with him,but they're like,man,it's just too much.I'm like,well,dude,you didn't go through his life.Of course.It's too much.Yeah.They don't get it.I was having a conversation on a podcast recently and we were talking about this idea of,um,when you go through extreme trauma,it develops a mania.And you have to find your right archetype to express that mania in a more alchemized sense or in a transmuted sense,like in,you have to find somewhere to use that energy.Mm-hmm.And the word that they used was Goggins has,um,I forget the scientific word,but it was,uh,Kinetic something,but essentially it was moving mania.He's able to challenge his manic like tendencies that he developed from a very hard upbringing into movement and into the body.And it's,um,I think it's a form of enlightenment.Yeah.Without question.I think the way you said it also that's nice is you said it's a form because I,one of the things that gets,I get kind of frustrated with is when people.Articulate the way,I'm like,okay,time out the way.In what context?Because like,I don't think that,you know,I just did my first full Iron Man two weeks ago and I'm imagining going through what Goggins went through with broken legs and like numb feet and like,like military training and stuff.And I'm like,man,I just don't think,I don't think I would need to go through that.You know what I mean?And maybe that's just because I don't know better yet,or maybe I should,but I think,uh,on a,on a very real sense,he's doing what he needs to with his great gifts,which also happened to be in response to his great,his great pains,right?So I think that's,I think we're all given a specific set of hardships.And I don't know if this is,I don't know if this is like something,this is an a fully articulated thought,but it seems right that we're given a set of hardships that we ourselves,by overcoming them,can manifest our greatest destiny.Now,I don't know if that means that they're actually prescribed to us,but I think that they're given to us for a reason.Right.So,for example,there's a great tie between creativity and mania or schizoaffective disorders or depression and musical talent.Like all of the,you know,all of the great artists,were a little,were a little messed up all of them essentially.And instead of having judgment for that,I think the reality is you should just look at that and say,um,what are the things about me that if integrated.And brought to bear could manifest the most creative potential.And a lot of times they look like on the surface,they look like the things that are bringing you the most internal turmoil.It's so true,man.And I,I,I apply it to my own life and I see how true it is.Right?Like I,um,I had a autoimmune skin condition.Yeah.And that plagued with my mind for a while.Right.And then quarantine.Gave me this opportunity to do like a very extreme diet.Since we were just stuck in indoors,I was able to,um,I was able to do this diet of essentially meat and vegetables and nothing else.Yeah.And it drove me crazy.I was miserable in it,and I was able to essentially cure myself from it.And with time I,I was able to have more freedom with the stuff I eat,blah,blah,blah.But as I look back now,All of my personal growth has stemmed from having that skin condition.Yep.The person that I,I attribute who I am today is solely because of that.Because I knew like,especially like when I was in college,right.And it was like everyone was going out on Friday night and I would.Be asleep by11:00PM because I know how big of a role that sleep would play and that if I went out till three in the morning,I would wake up with a skin reaction.Like these things and this discipline that it,it instilled in me,I'm able to now see how big of an advantage Yeah,it,it was.And I think it holds true for everyone.Oh,without question.I love that story.I love that story.A great reframe that hurts like hell.Is,uh,for somebody to say,I,I remember talking with someone,um,when I,you know,I've had,I've had episodes of,you know,mental clarity or mental dysfunction,like,um,times in my life where I'm,uh,either manic or depressive,you know what I mean?And everybody has their,their tendencies towards when things get rough,the weakest link gets pushed on.What is that weakest link?It's a little different for everybody.But,um,I remember I went through a particularly,uh,stressful.Period of my life and the stress caused me to stop sleeping.And the,the lack of sleep caused me to go really deep into mania,which made me drink coffee more,which made me go really deep.And then it made me drink more.And it was just a cycle where I was like drinking,and then I was drinking coffee and not sleeping and,and this on and on for a while.And it really,I mean,I didn't realize it,but after a few months I was in a bad,bad place internally.And,um,And it was actually that,that,um,drove me into the ice,right into the cold water,and I started doing cold bass.So that's where I found Wim Hof.This is like,uh,2000,uh,17,2016.I started doing,uh,Wim Hof stuff because,basically because I was freaking out,not because I was like,oh,wow,cool,I'm gonna do something healthy.It was like,I need something to,I need something to,to just hit me like a hammer.That's what I felt like,yeah,it was like,and the cold,it just,It dominates you.That's what it does.You have to accept it.It hits you so hard,there's no fighting it.What are you gonna do?You gonna fight it.It's like you accept it.And that was the thing is that I had a very difficult time with acceptance,but through that,the cold gave me a tool to move that energy.Going back to the Goggins thing,it gave me a tool.And then through the,and then uh,through that I learned about breath work.Through that I learned about endurance races.Through that I learned about fasting.And so my go-to tools and I'd be curious to hear yours right,but my go-to tools for myself are,um,is,I think my first one is fasting.I mean,I fast,I I probably fast at least two days a week,like full fast,either24hours or two days straight.Um,and then typically what I do is I'll do a three to five day,once a quarter,and then once a year,like a five to seven day,But I'm open to doing longer than that.I just haven't done it.Um,but the other one is cold,like getting in the cold.And then the other one is,uh,distance,meaning distance races.So riding my bike for50miles or running,you know,10or20miles.Things like that,that when you get deep into,oh,also sauna.But that one's,that one's kind of nice,that one's not too bad.Um,but the reason I chose those is,uh,because,um,all of those kind of have to do with taking something away.Some people go towards something where they,where they put something in,they,they,uh,uh,either,uh,smoke something.Or they,uh,drink something or they watch something or they,they're putting something in.And I've learned that a lot of times it's,uh,via tiva.It's by getting rid of things that we find.Um,it unpeels something about my,my character that helps me see it clearly and.Instead of muddling it more,you know what I mean?It's so true.And I think that those tools,fasting,cold distance,running sauna,it's such a good way to,to discipline the body,to calm the mind.And,um,if you have a dog,you know this is true,right?Like if you don't walk your dog,you can almost feel that your dog is very anxious.Yeah.And I mean,we're no different.Like you need to,uh,make savage the body to calm the mind,and it,it's,oh,it's such a good lesson that people don't realize enough.And these things are a truly a great resource and people don't leverage them.Well,they're kind of annoying,to be honest.They're They are.They are.They are.They're painful and there's a lot of resistance to them.So one of the things that I've,I've done is hardwired them,meaning I,it's like,I don't have to do it with fasting anymore,but I used to do it where I had to schedule and I had to be like,okay,today I will fast.Now it's like,so for today I,I'll probably eat at five today,but I might not,you know what I mean?I might,I might get there.The other day I was out for dinner with some friends and I just looked at the menu and I was like,no,I'm not gonna eat today.And it wasn't because anything looked bad,it was just,I looked at the menu and kind of my,my inner compass and my inner soul said,oh no,no food right now.Right.And so there's a level of intuition that you get,you integrate it,right?Fasting doesn't feel like nearly as much of a discipline anymore,but cold.Oh God,I,when I'm about to do the cold plunge,so I usually do cold plunge before coffee.So when I,I have a dunk tank in my yard and I go out and I just do a dunk and then I can have coffee,right?And so by doing that,you kinda have to hardwire the,you,you have to hardwire the,um,the behaviors that manifest the best life for yourself.Because when it,you get decision fatigue,otherwise,that's something that I don't think people talk about very much,but if you're constantly making decisions,you're gonna exhaust yourself.You gotta stop making decisions,you gotta just systematize it,right?Because decisions are much more expensive on the brain.They take a lot more glucose than looking at a schedule and doing it.Does that make sense?Totally makes sense.Yeah.It's so much easier when you.Almost like prepare your mind.This is what we do.Yeah.We,if you know you're gonna fast and you prepare to fast and you've been doing it for a while,you almost like,don't even get hungry cuz your body just knows this is a part of it,this is what we do.Yeah.You kind of get used to that.Right.And,um,taking away that decision makes it so much easier to,to stay disciplined.Yeah,there's a way.There's a way too that your body begins to understand the pain.That's a really important lesson.I don't think people really recognize as happening cuz it's kind of intuitive.So for example,the difference between getting injured and getting sore from exercising.If you don't know,you think that the pain is the same,but actually there are types of pain that your body actually craves right now.That sounds a little weird,but I think that's actually true.That they're,it is definitely true.I think it's one of the reasons why we damage our bodies on purpose for dopamine like we drink ourselves till we're throwing up.Why on earth would a person do that?You know,it's not just dopamine,it's that we're applying some sort of xeno hormetic pressure onto the body to cause it disruption,cuz our body craves it.We want something to mess us up.You know what I mean?And now that's a bad example,right?That's an example of one that's not adaptive.But if you don't explore pain and and pushing yourself into discomfort,you will intuitively,whether you think about it or not,you will just write off all pain as equal.And that is a very dangerous place to be.Because the reality that people,if you want something,there's a level of pain that you have to go through.Okay?Well,if you don't know how to articulate the difference between productive pain,um,righteous pain,healing,pain versus injurious pain,what you're gonna do is you're gonna encounter hardship and you are going to let go of the goal because of the pain,not knowing that you're not aware,right?So,It.You get into a business.Alex Ramzi talks about this.He said,you gotta realize this is what hard feels like.People get into a business,it starts getting difficult.They don't really know what to do.He's his rebuttal is,well,that's what hard feels like.People say business is hard.Well,relationships are hard.Having a fit body is hard.Right?But what does hard feel like?It doesn't feel like,um,buying protein powder.Cuz buying protein powder feels good.Like,oh,I got my thing.I bought it.It feels good.Little dopamine kick.It feels like you're,you're kind of hungry.You're kind of busy.You're managing your schedule,and you have that weight sitting next to your desk and you decide to lift it up,even though you're like,you know what,dude,this is it.This might not even be a,this might be a waste of time.That's what the pain looks like.A lot of times it's confusion.I don't think there's enough emphasis on confusion either.That's one that I think it,I,I used to work as a coach.And confusion is probably as big a plague as anything else because people don't actually know in an articulate sense,what exactly are they doing?I wanna get fit.It's like,what do you want to get fit?What does that mean to you?Cardiovascularly?Just,just walk.You know what I mean?What do you mean when you say fit?What do you mean when you say you want a business?What do you mean when you say you want to have enlightenment?What does enlightenment mean?You know what I mean?All right.I'm,that's such a great point.I'm getting on my Ted Talk role now.I'm getting hyped up.I I'll calm down.No,no,but to that point,right?It's like I oftentimes think people think they have a discipline problem when really they have a clarity problem.It's not that you,yeah,yeah.It's like,it's not that you aren't disciplined,it's that you don't know what to be disciplined about or you're not confident enough in it to actually be disciplined.It's like if you knew what the perfect diet was and it guaranteed you,you'd live to a hundred,I promise you it would be pretty,it'd be a lot easier to stay disciplined to that diet because you know for sure that it's the right move for you.Yeah,that's a thousand percent true,man.I,I couldn't agree more with that.Sorry.Have you ever,they're doing some No,no worries.Sorry if there's beeping.Yeah,go ahead.No,no worries at all.Have you ever read the book,dopamine Nation,Uhuh?I think it's,it's something that you would,uh,you would really enjoy,but it's,it's written by a psychologist,I wanna say from Stanford,Anna Lemke.It talks about how pain and pleasure,it's in the brain.It's one circuit.They're very,very,very similar in the brain.And it's oftentimes like the more painful something is initially,the more pleasurable it will be later.Yeah.And the more pleasurable something is instantly,the more painful it will be later.And one of those chapters is on,is on the cold.And people with addiction,I think it just speaks exactly to what you're saying before of you have to find a way to do these hard things in order to then have that almost relaxation.Yep,yep.That's exactly right.And there's a level of it.Um,There's level of,that's hardwired,right?I was talking about this,about how somebody was like,you can be anything.I'm like,no,you cannot,you,you cannot be a person who eats no food.That's not an option.You cannot be an organism that lives off of nitrogen or hydrogen.It's not an option,right?You have to breathe.You have no choice.You have to eat.You have no choice.Right.You have to have cellular respiration.You have no choice.These are things that are hardwired,and I think some of these dopaminergic systems are very similar in,in function.You don't really have a choice whether or not your brain operates that way.No,and and the reason I say that is that there's a level of,there's a level of goodness that comes from believing.Like I can shape who I am.Right.And that's true,but that's true to a point.And I think that it's kind of danger at a certain point,it becomes kind of,uh,foolish or dangerous to think that you can,that you can alter your system more than you actually can.You know what I mean?Because do,do you kinda get where I'm going with that,with that dopamine thing?Because lot of people,I totally get where you're going.A lot of people when they're talking about religious experience or they're talking about,um,Well,let's put it this way,A religious belief that does not integrate death and pain is essentially valueless if it does not serve to integrate.Notice I didn't say like,explain,integrate meaning if it doesn't give you something to do with suffering,some way to move the pain,some way to move the suffering,it is essentially just fluff.Because notice how all,basically all of the main religions have some major rebuttal to the idea that death has the final word,all of them.Right.And I think that that,I don't think that that's something that's just because philosophically that just,you know,makes people wanna follow it.I think the reality is,is that that is addressing something that's deeply biological and rooted.The same as the need to breathe and the same as the need to eat.It's something in our,in our minds that has this impulse that needs to rectify the fact that we can contemplate our own mortality and we have to have some sort of eating like response to that.We have to eat something in response to that.Even if what we're eating is nihilism,we still have nihilism,you know what I mean?Like people will go towards what,what they feel like is the appropriate response to that,but they don't really have a choice not to.And,and that might not be true for every single person,but Yeah,we were talking about the pain piece.Yeah.Well,pain,I think pain and suffering are not the same thing,but they're very closely linked.And so that was,that popped into my mind about the suffering piece specifically.But also we have to make sense of pain cuz pain is a reality,even if it's joy.Joy can be really painful.You ever been so happy that you're like scared for the future?Oh yeah.I remember,uh,talking to people,you know,when they had their first child and being like,wow,isn't it joyful?They're like,yeah,joyful in the sense of like,witnessing the face of God would be joyful,and also you'd be like,I am,I might die because it's so powerful and so important,and now I'm,I'm tasked with this journey and this responsibility that it doesn't all look like joy.You know what I mean?I get it.I get it.You know,when I hear you talk,there's a groundedness and a clarity of thought that I find a lot of people will ultimately get through,do through deep contemplation and what gets them initially thinking deeply on these things is a lot of times a plant medicine experience.Was that true for yourself?Yeah,I've had a couple.I would say,um,my2cents now,this is the world according to Brett.Plant Medicine is a shortcut,but it will not do the work for you.It will put you in a place where the work is possible,but it will not do it for you.So the way that I've understood it,if you wanna read about somebody who knows what they're talking about with plant medicine,I would recommend Paul Check.Fascinating,beautiful human.I love his work in many regards.He's one of my,one of my all time role models.Um,good dude,very cool dude.Um,plant medicine will open the door,but it will not,and cannot walk you through the door.So if you don't grapple with it,and if you don't do the work,You will come out of it with some level of different perspective,but not enlightenment.So I'm gonna just say that because I think there's this tendency to where we approach,we're like,yeah,I went on this retreat,I did this medicine,and now I'm a different person.It's like,did you integrate it?Because summer camps bring you a high,but there also can be pretty hollow,right?Are you gonna embody it?So I,I push back against that because there's,they're really,they're kind of like kind of popular right now.There's a lot of,uh,a lot of people I talk to who I would not anticipate are into that are into that.And so,okay,so that's the word.According Brett.Um,the medicines that I recommend are via tiva.Taking away fasting,um,is probably the easiest one.Silence,darkness.Those will teach you as much as plant medicines.And I think that they'll teach you them in a,in a,in a way where you have a level of control that's actually more poignant.But if those are too aggressive because they are extremely aggressive,um,there might be some better options.I think psilocybin guided psilocybin trips are a,are a wonderful introduction.I think.Um,guided lsd,notice how I'm saying guided.Right,because I don't think that if you,if you're going for it for,uh,you know,just getting messed up,you're probably gonna have a bad time.Just,I'm just gonna point that out for anybody who's like,I'm gonna just go do it.I'm like,you're,you might not have a good time and you might just throw yourself into a psychosis,so just watch it.Okay.Be smart.Um,I think,uh,those two are probably,uh,probably the ones I would recommend the most.If you were to start with any plant medicine,um,I,I did do mescaline.I had a,um,it was a,about a day's experience of mescaline is peyote or San Pedro,right?Wachuma,that's what they call it.Um,that one was fascinating.That one was extremely enlightening.And it,it didn't like break any,um,conceived notions I had,but more so it just provided a deeper context.And it feels like one of the things about these medicines is that there's a level of agency with a lot of'em that you feel like there's somebody there showing you something.Like with Ayahuasca,they talk about,um,like kind of the presence.Mama Aya,with San Pedro,it was kind of a,like a grandfather feeling,like a masculine,kinda like a knowing calm presence with dmt.There's a lot of entities that talk about that.Um,describe things to you.Um,you don't hear that quite as much in,um,in mushrooms and L s D,but those are more,I guess,like sensory,um,disruptive experiences or enlightening experiences,if you wanna put it that way.But,um,yeah,I think if anybody's getting into it,I think probably the,the,the easiest way to enter in would be a small dose,a guided small dose of psilocybin in a place where they allow it,right?Because I don't know about a lot of people,um,The legality of it is an anxiety producing factor for a lot of people.That's something that I've come to realize is that,um,if it's in a place where it's,you know,it's really not,you're not,um,permitted to use it there while you're on the trip,that's probably gonna pop into your head and probably gonna disrupt the trip.So that's another piece of2cents right there.I would go somewhere where it's,um,where it's,you're well within the loss,you have no,you have no concern.There.Right.Or go to a country where it's not outlawed,you know what I mean?That way you're just eliminating all the,the ways that you could just have a,a bad,right.Okay.That's,that's plant medicine101.That's a good answer.And,um,one final question here,or actually I have two questions.I'm gonna let you pick which one we we'll end with.Um,okay.Either favorite quote or asking you why you don't.Write about these topics more on Twitter,because clearly you're extremely prolific when you talk about these things and well versed and articulate.Why have you stayed away from talking about these more philosophical content,content content,um,on Twitter?Because I don't feel like it.Yeah.Uh,I don't know.Um,it's work to create content.I'm not,I'm not really on Twitter.Uh,I'm not really on Twitter.Just,just to share random stuff.I'm,I'm pretty much saying the things that I feel like resonate with me at the moment,and I just haven't felt compelled to talk.I haven't really talked about triathlons.Right?I haven't talked about much about fasting.I kind of mentioned it.I haven't talked about plant medicine.I haven't talked about,uh,relationship stuff.There's,I mean,there's.There's so many things I could talk about.What I do basically with my Twitter is essentially I'm,I'm trying to create a,when life started,when it really began to proliferate,right?There was a mix of certain ingredients all present.Right?Now,this is the theory,right?There's lots of theories,but I like the theory,even if it's just a model that if you mix the right.Ingredients together at the right temperature,at the right pH life proliferates as a result.So what I'm sharing is part of who I am,but also I'm trying to create an environment where life will be proliferated.And so that means it's a little vague.It's not,it's not super personal.I don't share a bunch of like super personal stuff.It's,it's some ideas and it's a little bit a little out there,and some of it's a little.Esoteric.Some of it's a little too plain,some of it's a little too platitude.But the point is I'm trying to mix them together to create,yeah,the potential of life.Of more life.So that's my answer.Um,my favorite quote is by Meister Eckhart,and he said,if the only prayer you ever said was thank you,it would be annoying.And I think.Yeah.Truly that's,that's the way that I've decided if I'm going to live,I will live in a way where that is true.I don't know if you have this,but I've been trying to integrate,I've been trying to understand the role of Epiphany,cuz Epiphany used to be,I used to dismiss it.Right?I used to be like,well,epiphany's kinda like,you know,people have these real.Civilizations that are tied to dopamine,urgent experiences,just kinda like this thing.But the reality is most of things that I hold to be most true,I didn't,I came to,in a moment of epi an aha a,ah,there it is.Like I read that quote it saying so far in that I was like,it's so important to me that I will live.I will live as if that's true,even if I know it's not true.Now that's,that's kind of a bizarre statement,but if you,if you unpack that a little bit,what I'm saying is it's worth it for me to live out that truth against all almost insurmountable evidence that it's not true.Right.So life like the belief that life is worth living,I think is another belief That's right in there.That you could question it all day.But fundamentally,the behavior and the output reflects that.That belief is deeply held even against all odds,right?Even against all,um,counter arguments.So I think that's,when I say I'm gratitude maximizer my entire.If I can point even one person towards a deeper sense of gratitude,that would be,that would be enough for me as well.So I think that's probably one of the main points of my profile is just to give people space and quiet to have some gratitude.Yeah.There you go.Well,Brett,I'm incredibly grateful that you took the time today.Thank you for this.This was truly enjoyable.I had a blast speaking with you.Yeah,yeah,me too,man.And I,I got to talk a lot.I'm curious to hear,um,at some point I'd love to hear more of your takes about some of these things about what drives you and the things that you feel like have,uh,altered your course for good or ill,um,One thing that I do feel like I need to start into,um,start integrating is,uh,stories.I haven't really shared any stories,but,uh,stories are when I talk to people,that's what I want to hear.And so I probably should start sharing some of my,my personal stories,but that's a vulnerable feeling.So stay tuned guys.So I'll probably start sharing some of those ones.Absolutely.We'll do a round two soon and,uh,I'll be expecting to hear a lot of stories from your life.Good man.Awesome,brother.Well,thank you so much.Have a lovely day.Yeah,thanks you guys,and thanks for tuning in.I see a few faces that I recognize.Richie,good to see you,man.And jl,thanks for tuning in.So yeah,you guys all take care.Okay,awesome.Take care guys.And this will be up on Spotify tomorrow and Apple Podcast.Peace.Peace.