The Healing Power of Breathwork

Welcome back.Today we have on Michael Amanos.Michael is a content creator whose work focuses on healing chronic pain through mindfulness,breath work,movement,nutrition,and nature.This episode was quite powerful.I think you guys are gonna love it.Catch you guys inside.Peace.

Michael,appreciate you being here today,brother.

Yeah,man.I'm super excited for the conversation.Thanks for reaching out and send this up.

Absolutely.So I thought we'd start here with what got you into this world of health.what do we need to know about you to make sense of your content that you put out and just all the work that you're doing.

the introduction to the health space started when I was really young.I come from a family that's like very health oriented,like my dad is an ultra marathoner.My mom's a runner.Like we were always,you know,I remember being a kid and,uh,my dad waking us up to do triathlons and the triathlon would be like10laps in the pool,in the backyard,run around the block,and then bike around the neighborhood.Um,so ever since I was young,that was kind of just like the mo of our family.It was like we,and,and even going back to like grandparents and even even great grandparents,um,athleticism was highly valued as part of our,our family's value system.Um,and you know,I just had a pretty typical upbringing.I played sports and all that,and then got into weightlifting,uh,you know,in high school,but transitioned out of sports into that as my main athletic,uh,outlet.Um,and just loved it.I mean,I,I loved being in the gym.Uh,I loved learning about nutrition and how those two worlds combined.And,uh,yeah,like I,I got into college and I was feeling pretty lost about like what I,what the hell I wanted to do.I never really felt like the normal route of,you know,a desk job or,uh,the corporate world resonated with me that much.So I.Um,decided to try and do the,you know,the,make my passion my career.And I,uh,did exercise science as my major a couple years in community college,uh,and then finished out at Arizona State.Um,so that was,you know,that was,that's like the general,the general way it went.And then I fell off the boat,uh,when I was probably around21,22.Um,and then got back into the health space,and especially more around like holistic health in2020,um,for a number of different reasons.But,uh,you know,the whole Covid fiasco was definitely a big one.Uh,kind of brought me to this understanding that,um,your health is in your own hands and,uh,nobody,especially not any,you know,governmental entities or anything like that,they're not going to,uh,look out for what's best for you.So it's up to you.And that's,you know,that's,that's what got me back into it after falling off for a little bit.

I'm particularly interested in the fall off just because one you mentioned you were22at the time.That's the age I'm at right now.And I just find that a lot of people are,they don't talk about their,their falling off or the dark times just because,especially in social media.People paint this picture as being these disciplined,perfect people and,reality is often different from that.So tell me a little bit about that falloff period.

Yeah,so I was,uh,like I said,really big into the gym.Me and a buddy were actually doing CrossFit like religiously,and we were having a blast with it.I mean,I was going to my,you know,gonna school.So my whole life was around like exercise,movement,uh,nutrition,like,you know,just like meal prepping.Like,it was,it was,it was everything for me.Um,one day at the CrossFit gym,I.Uh,missed a squat,um,you know,kind of working up toward a,toward a three rep max and,uh,finished the workout,like,thought everything was all good,but just woke up the next day and had a little twinge in my low back.Um,from there it was sort of a slow drop off at the beginning of like,you know,kind of feeling like,okay,well,like the way to get over an injury is to rest.And,you know,got an mri.The MRI came back with some bulge discs.Um,I always related those bulge discs to like that moment in the gym to the squat,uh,that I missed.And over time,you know that,that's an interesting age too,because I was just turning21,so alcohol was like now thrown into the picture in a big way.Um,but like that combination,the,the back injury.Um,pulled me out of the gym.All of a sudden I felt like I couldn't do all the things that I really loved.Uh,and then,uh,you know,doctor prescribed me some opiate painkillers,which was,uh,really the,in the,the beginning of like a pretty intense downward spiral.Um,just using those,abusing them,you know,running outta the prescription too early,uh,picking'em off,off the streets.Um,and yeah,like all of a sudden this entire like world that I had been in,in terms of like health,exercise,movement,nutrition,um,had very bit like quickly I was out of that world.I was,I was,you know,kind of depressed.Lost,um,frustrated with my body,like,why is this happening to me?Kind of attitude and,uh,and then I've abusing drugs,abusing,uh,opiates and,uh,weed as well.Yeah.So,so that was kind of the falloff.And,you know,that was,I guess probably about,probably about over the course of like two,three years.But really,like the last year is when it got pretty bad.I think it was about24,25.And,um,you,it was just like,that was my life.Like,you know,wake up,drive to meet my dealer and,uh,you know,pick up,go to work,make some money,do it all over again the next day.So that's,that's that story and how that all happened.

That's so crazy to hear,and I did not expect that,and I especially didn't expect it because it's opiates and opiates are so,so addicting and very,very few people can even can get out of that addiction and get outta addiction.That addiction almost as fast I,I'm sure in the moment it felt so long.But in hindsight and in hearing you say it,it seems like it was kind of a fast transition for you.how were you able to get off that and then get back on that path?

Yeah,so it definitely did not feel fast in the moment.One thing I'll say,and I think anybody who's been addicted to something,uh,especially something as powerful that has,that can create such a hold over you mentally as opiates did for me,um,you'll,you know,something's wrong.Like,you know,you're not supposed to be doing this.So there's always a part of me that was like,you know,what the hell am I doing?But the pole.The pull was stronger than that.And,uh,once it started to get really bad,you know,I started to have withdrawals.Um,you know,that was pretty miserable experience.And that's when you,that's when I really would start to be like,okay,like I have to figure this out.I have to quit.But I probably quit opiates about a hundred times.You know,it was like every single time I would quit,I would make it a day or two.Relapse,quit,relapse,quit.It's just,it's just this constant cycle because the withdrawals are very miserable.Um,what actually led to me being able to finalize,uh,getting those out of my life was,um,Me,me being at home,my parents,I was living with my parents at the time.They definitely knew something was up.I that I wasn't myself.Um,I was sneaking off,you know,random,like going out,like being out late,uh,sneaking off in random hours of the day with like no real excuse or like no real activity that I was doing.Um,I had actually,my dad had had some knee issues at the time,and I,and I came across some painkillers that he had prescribed from the doctor.And,uh,once I found those,I mean,you know,I wasn't,it,there was just no way I was going to not do them.Like it was,they were free,like they were there.Um,and I,over the course of,you know,probably about a week or two,just did every single pill that he had in his medicine cabinet and didn't take long for him to find out.I,uh,uh,woke up one morning and he came out and he said,Hey,like,what happened to those painkillers?That,and that was like,You know,burst into tears,like immense guilt and shame around the fact that I had really,um,I mean,it,it became very obvious to me once I had that conversation with him that I was,I,I completely lost myself.Like,that's not something I would do throughout this whole process.Like,I was also doing things that were,uh,not aligned with who I was in my essence and in my core,like lying,you know,stealing,um,things like that.And,uh,that day after a long talk with my parents in the morning,I heard them on hold with a rehab facility and I burst through the door and I just said,I will do anything.Please don't make me go to rehab.And we worked out some conditions and some things that I had to do,uh,in order to stay out of rehab.And the reason I,I,I like,I was really like scared and like,kind of weirded out about this,this stigma of rehab.Um,I didn't want like to be the guy having a glass of wine at,you know,a Thanksgiving dinner or a Christmas dinner and have people like,Like,oh,sh like,shouldn't you be sober?Like,there was,there was something about that that really like,didn't sit right with me.And,and I also knew in my core and in my heart that like,I didn't have a problem with alcohol.Um,you know,weed at times.I think I definitely,I was definitely a heavy weed user,but,uh,opiates,it's hard to describe unless you've done'em,and don't if you haven't.Um,but they're different.Like they really change you.They change your brain chemistry in such a way that it's so hard and,and,and,and it becomes like your number one priority.And,uh,so I just,again,I just knew I didn't really want that stigma with me and like,luckily,like,thank God,like I had never done heroin,cuz that's the general progression of like,pain pills to heroin.So I had never done heroin and I,I felt that in that moment I could,um,I could pull myself out.Like there was enough motivation.Like I had the support of my,like if I had the support of my family,which I had obviously.At this point lost a lot of trust.Um,but that was the moment.Like we,and we had a conversation.We made a bunch of conditions around things that I had to do.Curfew.I mean,you know,24,25years old,I got a curfew.Uh,so,so,and over the course of the next,you know,probably six months,um,it was pretty grueling.Like the first week is obviously like the intense physical withdrawals,sleeping for like an hour every night.Uh,just like sweats feet.It's like you had the flu,basically,like a really bad flu.Um,and then the mental part,you know,the mental game starts where like,okay,you feel better,but your brain is still like looking for that chemical,uh,high that you've been giving it every day for so long.And,uh,so yeah,it took me probably about,I would say probably about six months until I felt like really solid,like feet on the ground,like in control.Of myself on a day-to-day basis.Um,and yeah,that was probably after like,you know,probably three years earlier I had done my first pill and like when I did my first one,it was like,there would be like a week in between usage and then like slowly that span gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller until you're doing it every single day.So yeah,it was,uh,it was,it was brutal man.It really sucked.

I mean,I salute you for being able to get outta that,and I'm sure there was a lot of tools in that process that allowed you to,be comfortable enough with the person you are to overcome that pull and that desire.

Yeah.And what,you know,you said something about how on social media,people kind of like to,you know,it's classic,classic verbiage is like,it's like the highlight re of somebody's life.But what I will say is that through like the,all the really difficult times of my life and that certainly being like within the top.Maybe two,um,or three,uh,like so much growth came out of that,you know?So it is like,I,I'm not ashamed to talk about it.I'm not ashamed that it happened to me or that I did those things.Like,like I grew and immensely from them and I learned so many lessons and without those lessons,like I'm,I'm not the person that I am sitting here speaking to you.Um,so yeah,like there was,there was just a ton of good that kunk that came from it.And that's sort of the,you know,that that cliche like,there's always a silver lining.Like that is,dude,that is so true.Every single like,really bad thing that's ever happened to me.Like,you know,I,I lost the best friend when I was21.I think that also kind of was a,you know,part of the instigator for me,really like,uh,Using drugs to cope with the emotional pain.Um,but like,even something as horrible as that,like there were good things,there were lessons that were learned,there was growth that came out of it,you know,so I think it's really important and I think it's,I think it's important to talk about cuz everybody has those things.Everybody has those really hard times.You know,where,where you feel just like completely desolate,lost,confused,alone,and,um,getting through those is the,that's what life is.You know,like,to me like that's,that like,like having the strength to see,see those things through and come out the other side and then look back on them and say,wow.Like,yeah,that fucking sucked.But like,look what came out of it.Like,look,look who I am now.Like,that's,that's what it's all about.So,um,yeah,a lot of growth came from that.

It is absolutely what it's all about.I use this phrase probably way too much on the podcast,but it's the obstacle is the way,and I use that phrase because it holds so true in my own life and sounds like the same for you.

Oh,I got chills hearing you say that.Yeah.

just,it really is so true that oftentimes,I was actually thinking about this today,cuz that that moment where,I felt like lost or really just down bad,I guess you would say was through an autoimmune disease and I was lost in that pursuit.I didn't know what to do.I was scared for the future and thinking about now,I was on a walk today and I was thinking that my advice for somebody who would be in the middle of that would be one day,if you're able to get through this,you're gonna want to write a love letter to that disease because it really holds so true what you're saying.Just it is that obstacle that creates you into that superior person.

Dude,I,I love that so much because one thing I've,I've,through that experience and then also through a more recent like inner work journey,um,one thing I've come to realize is like,you have to love the parts of yourself.That,that may not feel so lovable.You know?Or like,you have to love those experiences cuz they made you who you are.So,like that,that,that's a,I I actually love that idea.I've never heard of that before,but like,to write a love letter and just acknowledge that like,you know,this happened,it was hard,but like,I love that it happened to me.And that,that's like,that's like what healing is,you know what I mean?Like,that's,that's when you can know that you've,that you've truly healed something,is when you can love the bad parts of yourself,the difficult times,so on and so on.

If there was one concept lesson,something that you learned through that journey,that low point for you,what,what do you think that would be?

Oh man.Um,it's a tough one.There was a lot.

What's the first that comes to mind?

I just like,this is gonna sound,I don't know,like the,the thing about cliches is that they're cliches for reasons cause they're true.But like,just,you just have to keep going.You know?You just have to,what other choice do you have?You're just gonna give up.Like,that's not an option.It's not,it's not a good option anyway.It is,it is an option,but it's certainly not a good option.So,um,throughout just the worst times in your life,you just keep putting one,one foot in front of the other and you just fucking go head first into it.And,um,yeah,that's the only,that's the only way out.Only way out is through.Right.

The only way out is through.Well said I think this is a perfect segue to kind of what's next for you

yeah,so I'll try and keep it as short,but it probably won't work.Uh,so something,so something that I've learned about myself recently is that,you know,I've,I've lived my nervous system has sort of lived in this constant state of like low level like stress and fear and,um,Part of that is due to,uh,me just being sort of a highly sensitive person,but there was also an experience slightly before I hurt my back.And this is not coincidental.Um,me and some friends,uh,went on a,you know,we were,we were wanting to just have like a fun,psychedelic experience at age19.We,we bought what we believed to be L S D and we got something completely different.I don't know,I,to this day,I have no idea what it was.Um,but that night we had a terrifying journey and we never talked about it,processed it like I needed to go to therapy,you know,like,like literally the next day,probably with everything that happened and,and for,for weeks and months afterwards,I was stuck in this like,Place of like really intense mental turmoil and I was holding onto a lot of guilt,a lot of fear.And,um,I've come to this understanding now,uh,through just like some reading and learning about the connection between,you know,the emotional body and the physical body that,that my back pain had actually had nothing to do with that squat in the,in the CrossFit gym.Or even if it did.The fact that I,that I dealt with it for years and years and years afterwards was a result of the fact that my nervous system was stuck in this sympathetic state and therefore I could not heal.Right.And there's a whole body of work,and people have done a ton of research on,you know,repressed emotions and unprocessed trauma and the effects that they have on the physical body.And sometimes it's physical pain,sometimes it's migraines,sometimes it's gut issues.I mean,there's a fibromyalgia,there's a laundry list of conditions that are sort of unexplained by western medicine that can be at least partially explained by,by repressed emotions and unprocessed trauma.So,seriously,man,for,for years I approached healing my back in every,from every physical modality you could possibly do,like every single one.I,I did it.Um,and it wasn't until it got so bad,uh,actually within the last,um,year or so,it got so bad.I thought I was,I thought I was almost out of,out of the other side,like toward the end,uh,toward like the end of2022.I was like,My back feels amazing.Like I don't have pa pain anymore.And then some stuff happened in my life,some,some current day stressors.And like all of a sudden I had the worst explosion of pain.My sciatic,my low back,my sciatic nerve all the way down my leg,my calf down to my feet.And it lasted for like two months.And I was like,what?Like what the hell is going on?And it was my grandmother who is a,you know,she's93,she's a therapist,she has been for like50years.And she was the one who helped me put the pieces together that this is not a physical issue,this is a,this is an emotional issue.So I went through this intense inner work journey of bringing consciousness and bringing acceptance to the things that had happened10plus years ago when I was19on that,on that night.Uh,when we got that scary drug and,um,through that process I learned like,like things happened to my body.I had emotional releases that it's,and it's hard to explain exactly what that looks like,but it's very weird and it's something you had nobody ever taught me could happen,but like literally emotions coming outta my body.And like my brain would be like,okay,this is happening right now,but I would be like sobbing hysterically.Um,but I,so it was like the stored emotion that literally stored in the tissue at the cellular level is like coming out,but it's,my mental state is normal.Super bizarre.But I was like,man,like nobody ever,nobody ever talks about this.Like,I,I didn't even know something like this could happen.These were like really intense,powerful experiences.They've happened to handful of times.And,um,So all of that to say like,what is next for me is to help people who are dealing with those instances,like,with those situations,with those repressed emotions and,and unprocessed traumas.Um,for the longest time I thought that,you know,my experience with my back,like,like,like I said,I was an exercise science major.I thought about gonna physical therapy school.I did a certification called Primal Movement,which is about,you know,recoding people's movement patterns,um,to help them get out of pain.Uh,and for,so for the longest time I thought my calling and the reason for my suffering was to help people from that physical standpoint.And through that process I realized,no,it's,it's the emotional side.It's,it's the,it's the,you know,being trauma informed and helping people.Um,Accept that these things happen to them.And like we said earlier,like maybe even find that there was something good that came out of it and like,love the part of themselves that like,had to go through that and give themselves compassion.So that's what's next.And um,I am certified in a breath work modality called Somatic Breath Work.And the breath is using,using the Breath is a really amazing tool to create space for some of these things to come up and out of your body.It's been an amazing tool for me.It was an amazing tool through my inner work process.I actually just did a session like three days ago just because I felt like I,I,I still needed a little bit more.Um,and then I have some other ideas,some other certifications and educational pursuits that I want to do.And then in the meantime I'm creating a,a course,an educational course,uh,with some guided meditations,visualizations.Um,some,some methods for overcoming fear,uh,especially overcoming fear of physical activity.Cuz anybody who's in chronic pain has been told,uh,innumerable times that like,they should not squat,they shouldn't bend over,they shouldn't do this,they shouldn't do that.And like,so like,there's a fear response when you do these very normal human activities,right?So that's kind of,that's kind of what's next.And it's,it's very much the beginning stages.I,but I,I just quit my corporate job,uh,on Monday of this week.So I am all in,like,I'm,I'm ready to make it happen and,and,and just like have this like immense amount of excitement.Like,just like for what's to come and to bring this,um,this information to the world.Cuz like I said,like nobody told me like that.That,uh,a really intense thought could invoke a gagging response.I mean,this is something I went through.Like,I can't,I can't even tell you how many times I'd be like meditating or even like,on a walk in the morning and I'd be thinking about something from my past,and I would wretch,it was like almost like an energetic,energetic purge.I was like,nobody's like,and at first it happened.I was like,what is going on?Like,what is wrong with me?You know,luckily I found a guy who's been doing this kind of work for,for many,many years.He's like65.And,um,he,he gave me some assurance that the fact that that stuff was happening meant I was on the right path.So I just wanna bring,I,I just wanna bring it to the world,man,because,um,too,too few,too many people are suffering and have,and feel like they're,they don't have a way out.They don't have options.And like there's always options.Like we have the immense,incredible ability as humans to self-heal.Um,in my opinion,like from almost anything.Maybe not like a terminal illness,but certainly from like a chronic pain or a chronic condition.Like we can,we,you can heal it.Like anybody that's listening to this like you and you have something that you,you've been kind of like left out in the dust by western medicine.Like you can do it yourself,but you also don't have to do it alone,you know?So that's,that's the move,that's what's up next.

Man,I,I congratulate you on quitting the job and going all in.First of all,so many topics I,I could dive into you.You gave me a range of options here,but I wanna

Yeah.I told you it wasn't gonna be short.

I'm glad it wasn't short.That was,that was powerful.but let's dive into the tactical stuff.So you mentioned before,you said you,was it like soft or deep tissue work that was causing you to have this emotional response?What was the body work that was triggering this emotional

Nothing physical.The very first the,so,so the very,so let me,let me backtrack to like the weeks and months after the psychedelic experience,that was really terrifying.I would have what I would describe as like thought loops or like,almost like flashbacks,but not quite like that.Like where I would get in these like cyclical,like scary,like I'm not in control of what's going on in my head.And over time,eventually they went away.Um,or so I thought until at the beginning,toward the beginning of the inner work journey,it came back,like this thought loop came back and it was triggered by something that,by a conversation I had with somebody.And the thought loop,one of one of these thought loops came back and I was like,I was like,like,wait,like I got kind of freaked out.I was like,why is this,why is this happening to me again?Like,I thought I was kind of past this.Oh,I wasn't past it.I just,I just shoved it down so far that it,but it was starting to bubble up to the surface.So I had that thought loop come back and I was actually at my girlfriend's house watering her flowers.She was out of town.And,um,I realized,I can only describe it as an epiphany.I had an epiphany,and as soon as I had the epiphany about this thought loop that I was having,I was started gagging.And I started like retching to the point where I was brought down to my hands and knees on the floor.And I was like,spitting.Like it,you know,it's not a pretty sight,let me tell you.Like,I'm like spitting.I'm like,and it lasted probably about a minute,a minute and a half.It was like super intense.And I was like,okay,what the hell is that?Don't,had no idea what to make of it.Um,so I was like,I'm just gonna lay down and like,meditate for a little bit and try and like just calm myself down.And then as I was meditating,I,uh,yeah,I still like get a little emotional just thinking about it.I,I had,I had what I would describe as like a release of some of the guilt I had been holding onto.Um,and I started,uh,sobbing uncontrollably and I started screaming at the top of my lungs.I'm sorry,I'm sorry,I'm sorry.And after about20minutes on the floor of like meditating that came out,I don't remember how long it lasted,but then I calmed myself down and the thought loop was gone.So it was really interesting,um,and sort of unexplainable.But,uh,yeah.So,and,and other instances like that have happened,um,many times.Um,not quite as intense.The first one,the first one to me still has been the most intense

Mm-hmm.It reminds me of people's experience on Ayahuasca.

I've never done ayahuasca.Um,my sister,uh,has,I hope she doesn't mind me saying that.Um,and yeah,like I've certainly read and heard about experiences,uh,and I mean,I would say to a certain extent I was brought into an altered state,you know,um,sort of a self-induced one though.Uh,But yeah,people do have purging experiences on Ayahuasca or,or other,you know,psychedelic drugs combo,I think is one that sort of elicits that same thing.But to me the fact that it was

Self-induced.

self-induced was like,and this is certainly like I know people who have had incredible healing experiences on Ayahuasca and other psychedelics,but there was something I was really happy,like,and like felt very satisfied that it just came out in sort of a normal way,if that makes sense.If you can call that normal.Um,and all of the other ones I've had have been completely sober as well.So,you know,I think like ayahuasca or.Whatever other plant medicines are out there,they can be useful for healing.But I don't believe that they're a substitute for this kind of work.And I think a lot of people will just go down to Peru or Costa Rica and um,they'll try and deal with the trauma and they'll just like hope that the drug is gonna,you know,or the plant medicine is,is going to do the work for them.It's just like,not really to me how,how it works.Like it can be a compliment to some of the inner work,but,um,not a substitute,not your primary focus in,in my view,and I'm certainly not an expert.

That self-induced altered state,it's something that you,that almost everyone can experience through breath work.That super intense breath work specifically like the,um,holotropic breath work.Even something like Wim Hof,these things can bring out that state of it.It's,and it's,it's not always that scary,negative,dark energy.It's sometimes the opposite as well.Right?Like that,that incredibly euphoric,happy.Blissful type of energy.but there's definitely something to the power of the breath to induce these states of,let's call it healing.Would,would you say?

absolutely.Yeah,absolutely.And,and I've had,I've had many experiences in breath work that have been incredibly healing,but where I've gone,like,you,you,there's no way to like logically process,nor should you try to logically process any of these emotional releases.Especially not like right in that moment.You should just let yourself feel it and let it come out.I've had,I had an amazing experience in.Probably,I don't know,maybe my fourth or fifth somatic breath work session.Um,this was actually during the week,the four day long workshop where I was certified.And uh,I was asking cuz like,it was,it was kind of like divine timing.I went into this weekend and my back was killing me.This is like two and a half years ago.And I couldn't even,like everybody was sitting on the floor and like taking notes and I'm like sitting,shuffling around,standing up,sitting like,just like very,very uncomfortable.And we did a session that night and I was kind of doing that or that afternoon and I was like,um,getting into the breath.Definitely get,you definitely get into an altered state cuz you know,the breath is like a portal into,into your subconscious.Um,and I was,I was asking God,I was like,I was like,why?Like,why are,why is this happening to me?Like,I see all these,like,I just,I just wanna move my body.I wanna go in the gym.Um,I wanna sit on the floor.Like,I was looking at a room with like20other people all day,just like sitting on the floor super comfortably.And I couldn't do it.And I was like,why,why,why,why?And throughout my life I had asked that question and been like,why,why am I cursed with this?You know,like I was just a kid that wanted to do exercise science and help people get healthier.Like why?And,um,as I was,I was crying during the breath work,a lot of tears coming up,a lot of anger,yelling,and then like,all of a sudden I got hit with this again,makes me emotional just thinking about it.Um,I got hit with this,download this message,and it was God said.I haven't cursed you.I,I've given you a gift.And,um,that was the moment I realized like,any sort of suffering that you go through,if you can come out the other side,then you have,you do,you have a gift.Like you can bring something to other people who need your help and who need the lessons that you learned.Like you can guide them,you can help them.And that was the moment,like that was the moment I realized like,yeah,it is a gift.Like all the suffering I've done,all the lessons I've learned.Like again,it comes back to that same lesson of like,there's good,there's good that came out of it,you know?So that was really,really a wonderful moment.And I started laughing hysterically

Yeah.

during the breath.I,I went from like crying and screaming to like,literally uncontrollable,euphoric laughter.It was,it was amazing.It was a really amazing moment.

So,where are you at currently now?So with this practice,how,what have the effects been on you now since you've been doing it for a while?

Just,um,just,it just created so much space for me to like,accept myself and love myself.Like we are,we are,we are,you know,first of all,like we are all emotional beings.Like some of us are,are more sensitive to emotions than others fall under that category.I used to be ashamed of that.I used to be like,even just like in our conversation,like thinking back on some of these memories,like I feel,I feel it well up inside me.And I know there are people like,especially in like the manosphere,like Alpha Male Twitter,who would view that as weakness.And like,there was a time in my life when I,I would also,I was,I was sort of ashamed of that part of myself and like no longer,you know,that's just how God made me.And I love that part of myself.So it's just allowed me to,it's just allowed me to like,like create space for self-love and compassion because we all,we all deserve that,but we deserve it from ourselves first and foremost.You know?Um,it's not always gonna come from an outside source,so you have to find,you have to find it in here.

And when you find it inside,It's often then that the outside world will start to reflect that back at you.

A thousand percent we're,we are,you know,whether you want it to be,um,like manifestation,like there's a million different ways that different cultures describe this phenomenon.But yes,we are.Magnetic.So like what you put out,the vibration,your aura,your electromagnetic field,however you wanna describe it,it attracts that what you're putting out back to you a thousand percent.I mean,I,and I,I,I didn't really fully understand that until going through this process myself,but yes,you will start to receive that love,um,also because you're gonna have a greater capacity to distribute it and to give love and to give ca compassion to people who might need it,who you come across.And it's just this like beautiful cosmic back and forth of giving and receiving and giving and receiving.

It's beautiful.It really is.So for the person who's heard this conversation today and they're like,I want to give this stuff a try,give out,give some,give breath,work,a real go.What type of breath work do you recommend?Like what,what cadence,what,what,what should they look up on YouTube

so there's really two different ways you can go.Um,somatic breath work,which is what I'm certified in,which I've found the most healing with.It's,it's,there's two parts to it.There's the first three rounds,the first30minutes or so is like this10intense,it's sort of actually based,you mentioned holotropic breathwork.It's like kind of based off that model,like that intense cyclical Wim Hof does it,but he does it from like a physiological perspective when we're talking about the emotional realm.Um,so I don't,so it's,so let me start by saying it's,it's like30minutes of intensity and then30minutes of like,Let's bring it back down,like,so we're gonna ramp up the nervous system.We're gonna create that space to clear out,it's called the clearing.And then we're going to re-pattern,like,what are we gonna call back in?Are we gonna call back in gratitude,love,joy,compassion,et cetera.Um,that type of breathwork you should do with somebody to hold space for you.Um,it's not something that even I would want to do alone.

Just because it's so intense.

it's intense.And like,like sometimes you might,even if it's just like,like you,a hand to hold or like somebody to tell you that it's okay.Like I,I actually do these sessions.I lead these sessions virtually.Um,and like sometimes I'll notice that somebody's having a somatic experience and just to have somebody there to say like,you're safe.You know,just let yourself feel that.And it,and it's okay to feel that,like what you're feeling right now is actually normal.Um,I think that's really,really important.Um,but like,there are,you know,I've played around with so many pranayamas and yoga breathing techniques and,and meditation,um,is another great way.Uh,there's like,there's like emotional release meditations that you can try,um,where you kind of will get into a nice,like calm state and then you'll think about a situation in the past that maybe has bugged you or maybe somebody that hurt you.And then you'll just like notice from a place of curiosity,um,what comes up.Like what,like what emotions come up?Do you feel sad?Do you feel angry?Do you feel afraid?Do you feel,uh,but like,also like where in your body do you feel it?Like,so like sometimes I'll feel it in my throat or like my heart,you know,but you create this space.To just feel it.And then just like in that calm state,you can just observe it from,from a bird's eye view almost.And then just like,let it go and bring yourself and just say like,I accept these emotions and now I release them.Um,I'll,I'll try and find,I actually think I have,uh,a list of a lot of the different meditations that I've used,so maybe I'll drop that on Twitter for anybody who wants to gimme a follow and,um,

Yeah,if you wanna send that to me,I could,I could put that in the show notes for

That'd be awesome.Yeah.Yeah.I'll do,I'll do so.

Spotify.Um,have you,one thing that's been very odd experience for me that I've never quite understood was,um,I go to a group Wim Hof class in Miami where you,do Wim h four rounds and then everyone goes in ice bath.And,um,for some reason I do Wim Hof on my own often,and when I am in that group experience,it is10times,sometimes a hundred times more intense in the group setting.And it is,it's two different worlds,like doing it on your own and doing it with a big group of people who are all breathing in at the same time,breathing out at the same time.It is this really weird thing that I've never quite understood.

You know,I,I've experienced the same thing.Bru.Um,let me ask you this.In those sessions,does anybody,like,I know Wim Hof is not geared toward this at all,but have you ever been a witness to somebody or experienced yourself,emotional release tears,screaming,anything like that while you're doing these

Oh yeah.People,people have all types of reactions.I've,I've broke out hysterically laughing like uncontrollably for,for,minutes on end and just like totally lost the practice.But just like to just total differently di in a different world,just cracking up laughing and,and that is quite common.

but you also didn't lose the practice.Like that's,you,you,that's like the destination,you know,like to a certain extent.Like,and sometimes it's laughing and sometimes it's like the emotions that maybe aren't so fun to feel,but like you didn't lose it.Like you just got to where you wanted to go.Um,yeah,dude,there's something,you know,again,like it might be the coherence,the energetic coherence in the room of everybody being together and practicing it together,and that builds up the energy in,in a different way.Um,that session I spoke about earlier,uh,there was a woman in the,in the breath work workshop.Who we were going around and doing sort of an icebreaker thing.Who are you?Why are you here?Et cetera,et cetera.And,and her story was that,um,she had,um,walked in on her husband's body.He had hung himself,um,and she had three daughters.And she was like,you know,this was,this was a year later in the breathwork session,but she was like,I'm trying still,still trying to process this.I was sitting,laying next to her during the session later that afternoon and knowing her story and like knowing and like,and like hearing her like tears,no,Wai like wailing,like,like I could feel how broken her heart was just,just from her sitting next to me.And that elicited that same response from me.So there's,it's one of those things,um,in this world,they can't always be explained.At least using words,they can just only be felt and understood.But there's,there's no doubt in my mind that there's something happening when you're doing it in the group se setting that that creates a different energetic s I don't know,um,

Frequency.

energetic frequency.That would be a good way to,to put it,at least in the words that we have.

Do you think outside of breath work,are there any other practices that you have found to be equally as powerful?

Yeah.You know.Different e everybody's gonna have something different that works for them.So the breathwork,one thing I will say is that,you know,it,it's sort of inducing a sympathetic response to your nervous system.And for some people that that's not gonna,that's not gonna fly,especially if it's like a really,really intense trauma.Like if we're talking about like childhood molestation or,you know,I mean,uh,parents dying or like,things that are just,just,nobody can really understand the pain unless you've been through it.That may not be the right modality.I,through my inner work journey,was introduced to something called eft.It's called Emotional Freedom Technique.And with eef T there are nine,um,acupressure points that exist on the human body.And you,all you do is you gently tap on them and you'll tap on the different points while you're talking with a practitioner about,The memory,like you'll bring the memory to the forefront of your consciousness.And what these ACU pressure points do is they actually deactivate your amygdala.So they deactivate the fight or flight response.So you're able to talk and,and remember and bring consciousness to the event in a way that doesn't trigger your nervous system.Because if you're triggered,you're not gonna be healing.Um,and that e f t,the EFT sessions I had,I actually tapped through the entire psychedelic bad experience that I had when I was19and had me,you know,had many emotional releases through that as well.And it's a little bit more targeted,which I like,um,toward like a specific sequence of bad memories.And it's so interesting.You'll be tapping on,let's just say,let you'll,you,you,you,you think of one.Part of the memory,just like one little scene.And you tap on that scene and you go through a couple different rounds of tapping on all the different points.And you finish,you take a deep breath,and then the practitioner will say,okay,how clearly do you see it now?And you'll be like,well,it went from like a10out of10and now it's like,now it's like a five out of10.And,and then,okay,we gotta get it below a two.And then you'll do a couple more rounds of the tapping and you'll verbalize like,what happened in the memory.And then after those couple more rounds,you take a deep breath and,okay,where's it at now?And it's like,dude,it's like,you almost can't find the memory anymore.It makes it very,it makes it very blurry.And that was like really bizarre to me.I was like,whoa.Like how can you do that with a memory?Especially when some of these memories are so like,vivid,you know,like,like the,the worst thing that's happened to you in your life,you can usually recall it.You can think about how it smelled,you know,what the temperature was in the room.I mean,you can remember everything about it.And then after a few rounds of the e ft it sort of just like fades into a part of your memory where it's not,it's not so like in your face.So I,I love that one.That's,that's the mo modality I'm going to be certified in as well.Um,timeline,I'm not sure,but it was so,so powerful.And just like the point of saying all of that versus like this,the,the,the somatic breath work,very sympathetic driven modality versus like something like that,you're like in a room,it's calm,you're just with one other person,parasympathetic,right?So some people need the parasympathetic in order to do the healing,they need to feel very safe.And then some people need to rev up,you know,and create the space.So,um,There's a,there's,there's different strokes for different folks,however you wanna phrase it.Um,but yeah,that's,uh,that's,that's the,that's the other one that I tried that I,that I really liked.And there's infinitely many more out there.EMDR is one that comes to mind.Talk therapy,I think has its place.Um,but not necessarily always eliciting the true somatic experience that's required in some cases.

I feel like in the mainstream,people only know of talk therapy in order to overcome that trauma.You think that's true?

I think it's,I think it's by far the most common suggestion.Um,and if you've never really been exposed to,uh,any of these other modalities,you just kind of think that,like,that's,that's your only option.And like that is so far from being your only option.And in my view,and I've done talk therapy,like,let me just say that.Um,but it,it's,in my experience,it was far from the most effective option.Um,so,but yeah,mainstream,mainstream view.You know,go to therapy,go to therapy,like there's a time and place for it,but there's more out there.There's much more.

Do you know who Charlie Hooper is?Are you familiar with him?

I'm not,no.

So he runs this massive YouTube channel called Charisma on Command,and just kind of teaching you communication and how to talk and how to be portray yourself a certain way.But in podcasts and stuff like that,he opens up more about his own personal journey and he was molested as a kid and he attributes a lot of his healing to holotropic breath work and how powerful of a modality that has been for him in overcoming that.And,uh,he has a podcast now and he says before every single podcast,he will do holotropic breath work.And it puts him in this,more open,more focused state of mind that has been,uh,incredibly powerful for him.

Yeah,holotropic breath work is amazing,actually,believe it or not.My,I call him a therapist,but he's not,that's not quite the right way to describe him,but my therapist is,uh,he worked with Stan Groff back in like the eighties,uh,who is the father of holotropic breath work,and he traveled around the country with Stan doing breath work,and I,I did a session with him.When I was going through all this,I had to drive about an hour and a half away from Phoenix,two hours away.Um,but it's just,it's a little bit different than the stuff I had been exposed to.But yes,it,it was very,very powerful.I was able to get a lot out of it in like45minutes.A,a true holotropic session is like something ridiculous,like two and a half hours long.I mean,it's crazy,but you can get,you,you,not everybody needs that.You know?I think one of the most important things,and one of the realizations that I've had is like to put like a timeframe or a structure on some of these things is taking away from the,um,intuitive knowledge of the body.

Hmm.

So somebody might need an hour of breath work to elicit a response.And also just to say like,you might not get a somatic release and like,that's,doesn't mean it did anything wrong.The goal is not to get a somatic release.You know,it's just something that happens.Um,uh,but like somebody else could,could get it in20minutes and then they're like exhausted and to like keep pushing them through,like more breathing may do more harm than good.So,um,anyway,all that to say just,uh,just the body,the body knows what it needs.

The

Um,so sometimes,yeah,sometimes a shorter session is,is just as powerful for somebody as like,you know,if you were to go full on two hour holotropic session and that guy Stan Groff,I mean,he was essentially trying to use the breath to,because he,he actually started using L Ls D as like he was exploring that world,um,like in the fifties and sixties and he did a lot of LSD and then he kind of realized it wasn't doing quite what he was hoping for in terms of like,um,healing for people.And that's when he went into the breath work.So he,that he would do,do these two and a half,three hour long sessions in order to try and induce that.Altered state and he found that,yeah,it works.Um,but not everybody needs all that.

With all this talk lately about psilocybin and the positive effects it's having with people who are dealing with trauma,what,what do you think about that stuff and how do you relate it to like all the stuff you're doing?Like what do you think the use case is for something like L S D or psilocybin in comparison to breath work and these other modalities?

On one hand,I don't necessarily want to encourage anybody to dive into that realm because my whole experience started with getting a,a batch of drugs.That was not what it was advertised.Right.And like I said,I still,I still don't know exactly what I got.Um,and it was,it was,and it led to all these things.Fun,you know,comes back to the same thing.Good,good.Ended up coming from it,but it was really terrifying and,you know,suffered a lot through the pain.I've done my fair share of experimenting.Um,I actually did my first,like some people call it like a hero dose,uh,but like a larger dose of psilocybin,uh,back in March and had simultaneously a very beautiful,and then turned into like a pretty scary experience.And then what was interesting is that I'm at least mature enough in,in a place now where I was able to integrate the scary and terrifying parts of it and like,um,sort of pick out the lessons that I learned.And they,some of'em,some of the lessons actually didn't become clear for like until like two months later.Um,they're very,very powerful substances if you're going to partake in them.I think you need to do so with the utmost care.If you can find somebody to hold space.Like,you know,the ayahuasca ceremonies?They have the shamans,but there are people out there who I'm sure,you know,if you did enough research,you could find somebody to hold space for you in,in one of those kinds of experiences.They're powerful.Um,they can be very beautiful.They can be very terrifying.It's,it's like,it's like rolling,like every aspect of the human experience into a little ball that,that,you know,you experience for like four or five hours.It's nuts.Uh,in terms of how it relates to breath work,they're just,I mean,it's just so d it's,it's an both,both.The only similarity that I see is that they're both an altered state,um,and they can both induce powerful healing.Um,I think the breath work is much safer for somebody,and that's speaking from experience for sure.

Michael,do you think there's anything that we haven't discussed today that you think is critical in.All the stuff that you're current,like this path that you're currently on and the stuff that you're going to be teaching,is there anything else that's fundamental that we haven't discussed?

We've,we've covered a lot of ground,man.Um,I would say,you know,just wanna reinforce this idea,something I believe to be very true and I hold near and dear to my heart that like we all,we are all healers,but it's healers of the self.Um,nobody,nobody out there can heal you.Okay?Only you can do that for yourself.Um,And it's gonna be hard.It might be one of the hardest things you've ever done,but it's,it's worth it when you get through to the end.Um,so if you are,you know,on your own journey of healing processing,or you think you might need to start that journey,there are,there are people out there that will support you.I'm one of them.Please feel free to reach out to me on social media.Um,Twitter,Instagram,uh,if you do feel like you have that,uh,that need for support,um,you don't have to do it alone.And,uh,if you just carry,like,carry love with you,like,like,like love is accessible to you at all times and you just have to find it within you.And if you carry it with you,you can,you can face anything.It's my last,uh,it's my last message I think.

Brilliant.This episode was incredibly powerful and I so appreciate you taking the time today.I always measure the,Conversation by how fast it goes by.And this hour absolutely flew by.I felt like it's,it's been15minutes.so I just appreciate you and I,I thank you for being so open and,providing people with a lot of options

Yeah,man,I,I couldn't agree more.I literally just five,10minutes ago I looked at the clock and I was like,oh my God.We're almost done.Um,no.Amazing,amazing conversation.Uh,thank you again for setting this up,for reaching out.It's been an awesome chatting with you.And,uh,yeah,just,just really glad we were able to do

as well,brother.Thank you guys for listening.Catch you guys next time.Peace.