The Dichotomy of Masculinity and The Psychology of Andrew Tate | David Sutcliffe

Speaker 1: 0:00

But today on the show we have on David Slycliff. David is a former actor who has appeared on Friends and Gilmore Girls. He is now a therapist and a somatic practitioner. Notably, david recently interviewed Andrew Tate. We are living in a time of loneliness and David offers a solution for men to get out of their head and better show up in this world. This was an incredibly fascinating conversation and I can't wait for you guys to listen to it. Let's get started on the episode. Are you doing this work to facilitate growth or to become famous? Which is more important Getting or letting go? So then I went back and I listened to your conversation with Andrew Tate and I was a bit blown away. It was quite exciting. To you know, I've heard a good amount of his content, but it was a unique perspective. It was very, very, very cool to see a conversation from that lens. What about it intrigued you the depth of awareness and, I think, from his perspective, how thought out his perspectives are. It's so rare that you have an individual who is so. He has such a reasoning and explanation for every little thing that he does. I don't think I had seen too many individuals with that much of a rationale for the things that they say, especially when they're getting psychoanalyzed by someone like yourself who's so in the know, so present, so trying to pick those things out and to just always be able to come back. It was interesting to see. He's a smart guy. He's a smart guy. Why do you think so many people are drawn to him?

Speaker 2: 1:56

Well, I think he's speaking a lot of truth at a time when there's a lot of lies in the culture. I think he's voicing the feelings that a lot of men have about masculinity and the way it's been demonized, and I think he stands proudly and forcefully for old school masculinity, which is duty and honor and responsibility and taking care of your business and keeping yourself fit and strong, and I think those are things that men like to hear. They want to be challenged, they want to be pushed. I think they like the firmness of a man like Tate and I think a lot of men grew up without strong role models, strong fathers, and so he's providing that alpha energy which I think a lot of men need and appreciate. He's funny and entertaining and bold, and I think that's also appealing.

Speaker 1: 3:01

I sat back after that conversation and thought about that same question for myself, and what stood out to me was it seems like we have a culture of the very feminine energy telling you you're perfect the way you are, and young men don't feel perfect the way they are.

Speaker 2: 3:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:20

And then guys like Andrew Tate, jordan Peterson and a lot of this more traditional masculinity movement. They're telling you that you're not perfect the way you are, but you can do something about it, and I think that's so appealing for young guys.

Speaker 2: 3:35

Yeah, I think men grow through challenge and I understand the feminine perspective of love and acceptance and nurturance and as a psychotherapist, that's a big part of my job. You have to affirm people's feelings. They need to be seen, they need to be understood and you need to demonstrate compassion for the things that happen to them. There's a reason that they are where they are if they're struggling. But from my perspective particularly men they also need to be challenged and I don't think that, at least from my perspective, and like I said, in the psychotherapeutic community that happens often enough, in part because most psychotherapists are women, so most teachers of psychotherapy are women. So it has a bias, and that's fine. But I think that's why a lot of men don't want to go to psychotherapy, because they don't feel that it works for them. And you know and I get it it makes sense to me. When I was in my training, I felt the lack of masculinity in the school that I was at and I could feel that I was longing for something different. I appreciated everything that was being taught to me and there was a lot of wisdom and power in it, but it always felt like there was something missing. So what I try to do with my work is bring that forward.

Speaker 1: 5:03

And do you think those scabs should always be picked, in that regard of like kind of looking back and seeing what maybe was missing? What were some of the key things that caused you to be the way you are? Does it matter?

Speaker 2: 5:21

Well, I mean, I obviously have a bias. I'm a psychotherapist, so I think it does matter. Listen, it's a great question and I get challenged on this question all the time, particularly by men, like what's the point of going back and reliving my past? And the reason is because we develop mental models and belief systems in response to the things that happen to us as children and that happens on an unconscious level. So we are all programmed in some way and those programs are very persuasive and very compelling and it's hard to just go in and undo the software unless you understand how you were programmed in the first place. The focus of my work is helping people feel their feelings and I think we all intuitively know it's good to feel your feelings and that holding back and repressing your feelings can be harmful. Repression is not a good energy. Repression is stops flow, and I think we all know we want to be in a flow state. That doesn't mean not being in control or command of your feelings. There's a difference between repressing your feelings and not being a slave to them, like we don't want to let our feelings run our life. But the best way to make sure that our feelings aren't running our life is to be in connection with them, to be in touch with them to understand what they are, because the mind will fool us and we can rationalize a lot of our behavior and what's really happening is that we're just avoiding uncomfortable feelings.

Speaker 1: 7:11

I wonder if you know, stoicism is something that's super popular right now and I think a lot of current people who are looking into stoicism misinterpret that as thinking that you should repress those negative emotions or not show those negative emotions. But really it's in owning them but not letting you be owned by them.

Speaker 2: 7:34

Yeah, but how do you do that? That's the question. Like most people can't do that without training, most of us are reactive, and that is the problem with stoicism. They're essentially saying don't be reactive. How? That's a hard thing to do because the reactivity happens very, very quickly. When we get triggered, it happens instantaneously, and then we are in something and it's hard to get out of that, and we don't always know when we're in it, and so that's really the focus of my work what happens in those moments? What's going on? When you get triggered, when you get activated, when you're no longer in reality, well, what's happening is you're in, you know for lack of a better term you're in a trauma response. You're in your history. Something from your history, something painful, something scary, something that was maybe infuriating, is being activated, and so in that moment you're not in reality, you're projecting issues from your past onto the present moment, and then what we do is we rationalize it. So I think stoicism is obviously, it's a powerful philosophy, but even Tim Ferriss, who was a long time, you know, stoic, let's say, and talked a lot about stoicism, he came to realize that this very problem that I'm describing and I remember he said it on the Aubrey Marcus podcast, and it was really striking to me, because this is the very thing that I say to all my clients. It's what I'm holding in my consciousness when I'm working with somebody. What is it that you're unwilling to feel? What a great question, yeah, what is it that you're unwilling to feel? Like? What is what do you not want to feel? What is scary to feel? And the thing that you don't want to feel is going to cause you a lot of problems, because what happens is you're going to avoid all kinds of life, doing all kinds of things, because you don't want to feel the thing that might be brought up if you do this thing. If you decide I want to have a podcast, right, but I'm afraid of the feeling that it might have to feel if people don't like it or people think I'm stupid or it gets controversial or nobody cares. I don't want to feel that, right. So I'm going to avoid doing it all together. I don't want to get my heart broken. I don't want to feel that. So I'm going to avoid getting involved in any real relationship. I'm going to keep dating people that are unavailable. So, if you're not afraid to feel, what are you afraid of? You're not afraid of anything, because the only thing we're afraid of is feelings. And so my work is really about helping people feel everything inside them. And the issue is and I'm kind of going on here is that when we all got hurt as children in all kinds of ways like there's nobody that didn't experience some kind of trauma, right pain, we weren't seen, we weren't recognized, we didn't get our needs met, we were ignored. It can be very, very subtle. It doesn't necessarily mean that we were, you know, beaten or abused in some way, but those feelings are. They're withheld and they're hidden and often shamed if there's not space for us to feel them. And so we disassociate from those feelings. And for the child we disassociate because what we learn is it's not safe to feel them. And then we take that mental model and then we bring it into our adult life. So what I discovered when I first discovered this work is that most of us are being run, governed by our unconscious emotions. We're just not aware of it. But once you know that, once you see it, once you have the experience of that, the world looks completely different. Like you look out in the world and you see how much fear there is in people, how much repressed anger, how much pain is there, and that people are living their lives unconsciously governed by these repressed feelings. And so I'm a real advocate for feeling your feelings, for going, and that doesn't necessarily mean you have to go back and talk about every single thing that happened to you over and over again. I agree with that. I think there should be a statute of limitations on that. At a certain point, you do have to look forward, you have to focus on your goals and you have to let go of the past. But that's not always easy, and the mind is very, very tricky, right Like our shadow is very, very tricky, and it can convince us of a lot of things that aren't true, convince us to stay small, to stay protected, to stay safe. And so I feel you have to be really, really diligent about what's going on in your internal world and constantly be exploring, constantly be analyzing, like what it is that's going on inside yourself, because your exterior reality is a mirror of your internal world. So if you don't like what's going on outside of you, you're going to have to change something that's inside of you. And going inside yourself and really exploring what's there is scary. It can be scary, but most people. If I sit here with you right now and I say, is there anything inside you that you're afraid to feel, how does that sound when I say that Are there parts of yourself that are unknown that you're afraid?

Speaker 1: 13:02

of the word that comes to mind immediately is vulnerability. Vulnerability, yeah, and I think that's probably pretty common among men.

Speaker 2: 13:08

Which is meaning scared to be vulnerable, Scared to maybe I should rephrase it to helpless.

Speaker 1: 13:18

I think I have prided myself as being a problem solver, as so many guys do. So being in a situation where you can't solve the problem or where you have to rely on other people to solve the problem is it's a scary feeling. Yeah, why?

Speaker 2: 13:41

What's going to happen if you can't solve the?

Speaker 1: 13:42

problem. That's probably my ego, liking to be in charge and liking to feel needed, and then having that reverse be true is a blow to the ego.

Speaker 2: 13:53

Right right, if you can't solve a problem, it means something about you which is like what does it mean if you're helpless and you can't solve a problem? What is your? How does your mind interpret that?

Speaker 1: 14:10

I think, ultimately, if we're really peeling the onion and getting down to it, it's like you want to feel loved and you want. At the end of the day, you want to feel admired and loved, and I think that when you are or at least in my mind if I am helpless, I will be loved less. Like there's something to be said there. When you are succeeding in doing things well, you're admired and loved more, and the reverse of that is, I think, where that vulnerability stems from, or that's fear of vulnerability stems from Right right.

Speaker 2: 14:45

So that's an image you have. In order to be loved, I have to be a problem solver. I have to be successful.

Speaker 1: 14:52

You know, it's funny because you say it and I want to immediately be like that's not true, blah, blah, blah. But if I think about my actions, the way I go about things, it's probably true.

Speaker 2: 15:05

I mean, it's true for you, or it's?

Speaker 1: 15:08

true for me. Yes, it's true for you.

Speaker 2: 15:09

Yeah, and I think that's listen, I think there is some truth to that, right. Like, if we want to, well, if we want to be in a relationship with an amazing woman, women tend to be attracted to men who are successful I mean, that's a fact just like men are generally attracted to women who are beautiful, and that is one layer of reality, certainly. But when we're attached to the idea that who we are is defined by and our loveability or our value or our worth I mean, we all know this that's attached to our success that's a real distortion, because if you're not successful or you fail, that puts you in a real state of fear and what it means is the force that's driving you towards success is like this, deep insecurity, and I think from that place it's hard to be truly successful. In other words, I think most men would agree and women, that I'm going to be my most successful when I am coming from a place of. This is what I have to give the world, not from a place of insecurity like I'm trying to prove something to the world or if I do this thing, then I will get love. It's it. We're successful, I think when we're we're giving our gifts fully from our heart, without demand or expectation that they are received, that they're understood or that we are loved because of them. To me, that's real power and that's real peace.

Speaker 1: 17:01

Does that make sense? Totally makes sense. And I think we should try to define success because you know, I think about a lot of people or, instead of success, we should say, like, what to aim for. What you should aim for is an interesting question for me and I think that you know most people probably aim for happiness and that's why a lot of they fall into the trap of a lot of cheap dopamine and quick pleasure. If you define happiness or if you think about happiness in that way and I think you look at someone like Andrew Tate, who talked about duty being his aim and it's an interesting topic, because I was talking with this guy, danielle Bojelli, who he has a podcast called the History on Fire and he does these deep, deep, deep dives into people's background and he had just done Miyamoto Musashi and he said that his aim in life was duty, same with Marcus Aurelius. But when he did these deep, deep dives on these people, he was like he was almost not disgusted with them, but he was like they didn't. Their life was so it didn't seem like the life that he wanted to live and it was far from from his, in his view, a good life, interesting. So in my mind. I was trying to reconcile that and say what is an aim that would give you a good life, and I don't think I know the exact answer to it.

Speaker 2: 18:39

I mean, yeah, that's a big question. I think I'm redefining it all the time. I think it's fulfillment, I think it's feeling fully expressed, I think it's feeling like I'm I'm giving myself fully. I mean just the idea that I'm holding back, or that I'm not all the way here, or that I'm not going for life, that that causes the most pain for me. So I think that's one of the reasons that people love Tate is that he seems to be fully self expressed.

Speaker 1: 19:16

Fully him.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Yeah, like he's himself Now. Are there deeper layers underneath that, perhaps, but in who he is now, he's he. He seems to be fully expressed and he's out there and that's vulnerable. I mean, that's real vulnerability, to put yourself out there like that. And I think that we're all longing for that. We all want to be seen, we all want to express ourselves fully, like, say, the thing we have to say, or or paint the painting, or write the thing, or whatever it is. You know, create the business that we want to create. So, um, and that can be difficult and that can, I think, inevitably involves suffering. So I don't think you're going to escape suffering in this lifetime. I don't think you're going to escape pain. I don't think happiness should be the goal. I think that a deep sense of fulfillment and purpose is certainly what drives men, and and you have to look at what, what gives you that? I know for me, I've derived the deepest sense of satisfaction from the things that I've done, that have been incredibly difficult, the things that I was scared to do. And so do I want my life to be easy? No, I know, not at all. I don't do anything to make my life easy. I don't. I don't want unnecessary suffering, but I'm always putting challenges in front of myself. It's like as soon as we climb the mountain, we get to the top, what do you spend? 10 minutes at the top you look around, you climb down and you're thinking about the next mountain. I mean, that's just how we're wired and I think it's the journey to get there. I mean, we know this, um, just in terms of how our brains work and how the hormones work that, uh, it's really the journey to get there. That's the most gratifying Like when I think about my time as an actor, uh, in Hollywood. The success was was great, but when I look back on it, the the most fun I had, the time that it felt most alive was when I was pursuing it and getting close, like I'm going to get something here, like something's happened. I'm in the zone. I haven't got it yet, but I'm almost there. And that time, that excitement of going to auditions and and, uh, you know, getting close to it, getting close to the top of the mountain, that was the most fun. The success was sort of like okay, you know, cause I was, you know, yeah, you got the part and you're excited for like 10 minutes and then you're like okay, this is my new reality, and now I got to go do this job. I got to go to work, which is great, but it's. I think the pursuit is the thing, and so I think it's setting goals, often unrealistic goals that give uh men a deep sense of fulfillment.

Speaker 1: 22:02

I think that's what we should be doing we have such a misconstrued view of, like retirement and success in regards. If we think or most people think of it as like martinis on a beach and that is the ultimate. I did it relaxation but in reality that is a vacation, not a retirement plan. Yeah, and that's what you're striving towards. But when I think about a pursuit like the podcast right, and I'm in it and I'm climbing uphill and I'm realizing that you know, this is the moment that it's always going to be the most exciting, when you get that one guest that you're pumped up about and all that stuff, how do you enjoy those moments more? When you're striving towards that heaven or that thing you want to create, how can you make sure, in the moment, you enjoy the climb?

Speaker 2: 22:58

Well, just to stay present in it, that this is your life and this moment is part of your life, and not to get fixated on the end result, which is hard to do. Um, I mean to me the it's just, the whole game is, is presence Like that? That's how you win this game of life. You, just, you, just if. The more present in the moment you are which is a hard thing to do, because our minds are very active and we're, we're always thinking about you know what if and but, if we can come all the way into the present moment, it feels good to be present, like when you're actually all the way here and you're not in your head. It feels really good. So it's, it's just that, in some sense, and it's the willingness to surrender to that present moment, which is not easy, because when we're present, we're not in control, we don't know what's going to happen next, we don't know what we're going to say next, but that's the thing that's most alive, and so that's the thing that I'm trying to practice in my life, as much as I can. And just like so many people, I'm very often in my head I'm I'm worrying, I'm thinking, I'm plotting, I'm planning, and and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you get caught in there, I think that's the source of anxiety, which is why we do things like meditate or go work out or go do a cold plunge, cause these are things that take us out of our head and into our bodies, and when we're in our bodies we feel good, so do more things that make you feel good. Are you willing to dissolve in this moment? I mean, you know again, to bring it back to the interview, interview with Tate. Like, of course, I'm nervous. I'm flying over Romania, I mean, I interviewed him once before, but now he's one of the most famous men on the planet. He's highly controversial. I I have no idea what is going to happen. I'm on his home turf. He's a powerful guy. But this is what I do for a living. I sit across from people and I ask some questions, and so there's a muscle memory that's there. And I had questions written out on a on my phone that I was going to ask him and I thought, am I going to print a sheet up? And I said, no man, I'm just going to sit across from him, I'm going to get present, I'm going to stay in the moment. I'm not going to be worried about the next question I'm going to ask him, I'm just going to see what arises and that's the only. I knew that that was the only way the interview could be good and that if I was president, would force him to come present. Now we're really in something. We're not in some contrived conversation, we're actually in a real dialogue and neither one of us knows what's going to happen next, what's going to be said next. So that creates a tension. And now there's a story, because the audience can feel the tension. If there's a plan, it's too obvious. There's no, there's nothing alive in it. And so what I'm trying to do, like in my, in my work, whether it's in my individual sessions or it's in my workshops, is to stay in that present moment and model that for my clients. So I'm, I'm, I'm just noticing what arises. I'm not trying to go search for something, I'm not trying to figure anything out, I'm not trying to think of something, I'm letting it arise from within and I'm trusting whatever that is, whatever wants to come through me, whatever. Whatever is there, I have to trust it because there's an intelligence inside me that I can access in the present moment that is greater than the intelligence of my mind, and that's the intelligence that I want to be in. I want to live from that place and that's the commitment I made to myself, like 30 years ago, that I was going to try and my best to live from my impulses and my instincts and to let that guide me wherever it was going to take me. The Lakota will just say it's spirit. You just follow the spirit and whatever's happening is just spirit. Something happens, you don't like it spirit. And if you trust spirit and you just stay with it and you don't resist it and you don't judge it, just because you don't like it or it's not what you expected, and so you're disappointed, right, you let go of all that and you're like well, this is just spirit, you know, and there's something happening here that I don't understand, that I can understand, so I'm just going to go with it and see what happens. And what happens is inevitably it works out in some kind of miraculous way that you never could have planned. And that's what life is, always for everyone, I think.

Speaker 1: 27:35

I agree with you and it's so interesting because I see it in the podcast and as you get better at this thing, I don't know what I'm going to say next when I'm present in this moment, but it always works out somehow Some way. Always at the last second you could think of something to respond or to say next. And when you're saying that, it almost hits a light bulb moment for me, thinking about Joe Rogan and that being his superpower. I think Naval Ravikant had a tweet one time where he said the most incredible thing about being interviewed by Rogan is that he's exactly where he wants to be, not for a minute. Do you feel like his attention is elsewhere? And I think you know there's so many podcasts out there, so many people who do deep dives and all this research and stuff. And you know, joe maybe doesn't do all of that much research, but he's present and that present shows and it's one of the reasons why I think he's been able to do what he's done.

Speaker 2: 28:32

I agree, I think that's absolutely right. He's incredibly present, he's in the moment, he's in the flow and that creates almost like a vortex and energy, and so the guests are pulled into that and because of his presence, they come into presence, and that's why you have these interesting conversations that have a unique quality to them that don't feel performative. I feel like you're listening into two people having a private conversation.

Speaker 1: 29:05

Doesn't feel performative. I think that's what it is. It's like with with a lot of conversations, especially interviewee conversations, it's performative, but in those moments you almost like want to chime in and say things because you feel like you're just having a conversation with some friends. It's, it's very unique. It's very unique, yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:24

Yeah, and and we're, we're influenced by all the, the things that we see and and ideas of how things are supposed to be. So, uh, I know that's true. For me there's a, there's a way that I feel like I'm supposed to talk in different environments and I I I noticed the affectation when I'm doing it and I noticed that I'm in my head when I'm doing that, and I'm always trying to get out of that and surrender to the moment and just let it be whatever it wants to be and not worry about whether it's good or bad. I mean, I sing in sweat lodge. I remember the first time, first time I sang in sweat lodge, uh, by myself, four songs, and when I finished, my first thought was was that good? Did I sing? Okay, and I thought that's my ego. And sweat lodge is a sacred place and I'm not going to defile this sacredness by bringing my ego in and fixating on whether I sang good or not. I just decided to let that go and just sing from my heart, and there is no good or bad to it. Just sing from your heart and that's enough. Uh, get out of your ego, get out of the evaluation and just let it. Just let it come through and let it be what it is and don't worry about it.

Speaker 1: 30:57

To give context to that. So you, um, you do a lot of work studying and taking part in some Native American traditions, can you, can you, elaborate on that?

Speaker 2: 31:08

Yeah, I started training with Lakota music about About uh eight, I guess eight years ago.

Speaker 1: 31:17

What is?

Speaker 2: 31:17

that exactly. Well, um, lakota is a tribe, native American tribe out of South, uh, south Dakota, and Custer's last stand, that was the Lakota, and they have a very rich tradition, a lot of beautiful ceremonies, and they have a lot of music, a lot of songs. Uh, they're prolific. And so I started working with a Lakota song carrier, a medicine man, and he started teaching me songs. I fell in love with the music for whatever reason, I was just drawn to it. I'd never sang before in my life really, and, uh, and I started singing with him and drumming with him and and that it's a whole world, that that music. And the deeper you go into that world, it, it just things open up, like it's like anything, any deep study you do on anything, the deeper you go, um, the deeper it is and the more that you learn, and there's like a mystery almost in there. Um, and I became captivated by it. And then I started going to sweat lodges and then I went on a vision quest, which is four days, four nights, no food or water, alone in nature, and there's a whole ceremony around that. And then I started sun dancing, which is four days, no food or water, dancing around a tree and an Arbor. It's very intense, it's a lot of suffering, but it's very beautiful, the ceremonies are very beautiful. So I don't know why I got drawn into that. Uh, I just, you know, fell in love with all of it for some reason, but it became a way for me to connect with spirit and connect with God. I I didn't realize at the time, but there were I had a deep longing to connect with spirit, uh, to develop a deeper relationship with God. I was sort of, I think, agnostic for a lot of my life. Uh, I wasn't, I didn't not believe in God, but I didn't really have a relationship and it was really through the uh, the teachings and the rituals and the ceremonies of of Lakota people that, um, I, I was able to create a friend. Well, it creates a framework to connect to God and spirit and, uh, yeah, that that's, that's where I go, it's my church. I said sweat lodges is my church. I go every Wednesday. We sing, we pray, we're together in community and it's become a touchstone in my life, something that I'm incredibly grateful for. And you know, you, you might call I don't, they wouldn't call it a religion, but one might call it a religion and it's, it's not that different, I think, uh, fundamentally at its core, than than other religions, but it's got its own unique uh uh flavor. Uh, it's, it's very tough, um, obviously, if you think of the Native Americans out on the planes of South Dakota and North Dakota and Minnesota and Wyoming, it's, it's rough country, so you can imagine that their traditions or spiritual traditions and ceremonies would require a lot of suffering to prepare them for the, the difficult circumstances in which they lived. Uh, but there's some, uh, there's deep meaning in that suffering, when, when you do it consciously and intentionally, and it breaks you down, uh, breaks your ego down and opens you up to different realms, um, different, different understandings, different way of of knowing life and knowing God. And uh, you know, I, other people you know, take ayahuasca or or uh do other other things to to access that. But I, I just really enjoy um, uh, the, the, what I would call the technology of uh, the Lakota people and and because it's, it's, it's a system and it, there's a lot to it and it's not random, it, when you actually get into it, it's, it's a pretty. These rituals and practices are very specific and they all work together in some mysterious way that does something that opens something up and gives you access to realms that are just blown. My mind.

Speaker 1: 35:52

And it's so fascinating to me. I'm I'm somebody who is definitely a seeker in some way, and I think that I've developed an awareness of you need to worship something, because, at the end of the day, we all worship something, whether it's like our phones or junk food, whatever it may be, and so having like a clear thing that you're worshiping um is so cool, and I think so many of us, and myself included, have been disenfranchised with, like, the current options available to us and I think something like that. Like you, look at guys like Tim Ferriss, aubrey Marcus, these guys that we were talking about earlier, who you know they started off being super into like stoicism, and then they fall into these mysteries, study them, heal themselves in a way, and then they come, come out a more integrated person. It's a. There's something so beautiful about the way the Native Americans have gone about it too, in particular. It's it's a mystery in a way.

Speaker 2: 36:53

It is a mystery, and you know, they were out there on the planes for all those years, no phones, no TV, no radio. So they were tuned in to nature, tuned in looking at the stars, and you do that long enough, and information comes Um, and I think that we've lost that. I think that's in us, I think we're all capable of it, but obviously we live in a different reality now. But if you think about the circumstances, um, that they lived in, it makes sense that they would have a deep attunement to nature and that would open up things inside them, um, that would give them this, what I would say is sacred knowledge.

Speaker 1: 37:45

Have you felt that in your vision quests you feel?

Speaker 2: 37:49

a lot of things. I mean I, I, I listen, I don't know how far down the rabbit hole I am, I think I'm probably just at at the beginning cause you, you, you have a sense of how, uh, how well you have some sense of how deep that it can go. Um, but I felt a lot of powerful things. Um, it's hard to describe really. It's a, it's a, it's an embodied experience. I mean, I've had very specific visions and I've had, uh, spiritual wisdom come to me and my first vision quest, the information that I received on the fourth day, has become the guiding spiritual principle of my life and it came to me like, like a dream, but more real than a dream, and the kind of dream that you know you're never going to forget for the rest of your life. It's not going to fade Like it's, it's now with you, it's part of you and I've had that experience on all of my vision quests. And I've had experiences, also at Sundance, which completely changed my whole, uh notion of the fundamental nature of reality. I mean, you know again, similar to what people experience when they do psychedelics. They, they have, they look at the world, they take some mushrooms, they drink some ayahuasca, they're opened up to different realms and now the world looks completely different. It's like a layer has been uh opened up for them and they've traveled through some portal to see something else. It's the same thing, and you're not doing any.

Speaker 1: 39:38

no, there's no. No, no In during that time. Yeah, it's the same, it's the same thing, it's just.

Speaker 2: 39:42

It's just through the sacrifice, through the fasting, it's through the no water and it's through the, the Sundance. It's the activity which is the dancing and then the music, Because they're playing music all day long, drum music, I mean. You want to talk about it?

Speaker 1: 39:57

Music gets psychedelic, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:00

It's all. It's all you really need, right? Um, the vision quest is different because it's quiet and you're alone and you're still so, you're just with yourself. That's. It's a slightly different experience, but in both cases you're, you're broken down, and it's that breaking down, uh, that allows you access to to these deeper realms and to these deeper realms and the quality of what you experience is is unique. It's not like anything else that I've ever done, and I've done a lot of different things. I've done a lot of ayahuasca ceremonies, I've worked a little bit with psilocybin, and even the work that that I'm trained in, coroner jet x is. I mean when you're, when you go all the way into it, it's, it's pretty deep. I mean, I I might argue that it's the deepest thing that I've ever done. Um, going all the way into my you know, primal, most primal feelings, murderous rage, the part of me that wants to get revenge, and torture and and and to act that out and and to feel that part of me and and play with it and and to let it be seen, and then going all the way into it and then having that take me to my pain, and then having my body shake as I, as I weep, and I have this release. And then then an opening of my heart where I feel everything is one thing, I'm in love with everything, and I suddenly realized that the illusion of, of separation, so in some sense I feel like all things practices, modalities, ceremonies are all leading to that thing. There's just a million ways in. But, um, the, the, the training that I did in coroner jet x with this woman and Bradney, it's as deep a thing that I've that I've ever done.

Speaker 1: 42:03

And that's no psychedelics no psychedelics. No, crazy. I mean, there's a quote from Aristotle, um, I think he was talking about his experience at a Lucis, which I don't have. You heard about this. No, so Lucis was this place in ancient Greece that, um, only the highest ups would go, and it was a seven day. They would have to walk there and they would fast for seven days and then they would get to this temple, and it sounds like they have a very similar experience to you. And in Aristotle, and talking about his experience, said to no God, you need to experience God, and it sounds like that. That was kind of similar to how you felt. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:47

That's why these conversations about God that you see on Tik Tok with Sam Harris and they're debating, it's all bullshit. You can't as soon as you're talking about it from that framework, you're it's, it's pointless. God is a felt experience. It can't be understood. The Dow that can be can be named as not the Dow. It's just, it's that simple, like, and we've all had an experience of God. I mean you know whether it's, you know you're making love, you're lost in a sun, in a sunset, like you're in this. You're totally dissolved into the flow and and this other intelligence wakes up inside you and and you have a feeling of, of connectivity, like we've all had that feeling. Nobody's not had that feeling. To me, that's God. I mean. I guess atheists would describe it as something else, just some chemical reaction in your brain. That's fine. But even I mean you know again the conversation I had with Tate I think about this all the time. It's it is my faith is makes it so. So my belief in God makes God real and if I believe in God, I feel more powerful. Therefore, God is real. It's just that simple. That's the logic.

Speaker 1: 44:02

Yes, it's a beautiful. I think it's my favorite idea from Tate. It's this concept of it. Doesn't matter if it's true, if it's useful to you, that's right. It's beautiful. That's Jesse Elder actually. Yeah, yeah, who is Jesse?

Speaker 2: 44:16

Elder, jesse. Elder, he calls himself an action philosopher, he's a I guess he's a coach, personal coach, business coach. You should follow him. He's one of the most interesting people out there. He lives in Austin oh well, fascinating guy. But that's he's. He promotes that idea what's what's useful is more important than what's true. And so, you know, I I kind of stole that from Jesse and then presented it to Tate and he was like, yes, exactly that's, that's exactly what I'm saying. So, but it's, I think it's true. We can't know what's true and in some way, if we're, if we're believing something because he's what he's talking about is beliefs right, like form, a set of beliefs that cause you to get the result that you want? Are those beliefs true? It doesn't matter. If they're useful and they get you the result they want, then you could argue then they must be true, mm-hmm. And so you know, I think that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's true. So you know, it's a kind of circular logic, but I think that's, I think that's right. Now, the issue is, the human mind is very prone to self deception and we also have unconscious negative intentions.

Speaker 1: 45:40

What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2: 45:42

Unconscious negative intentions for ourselves, or For ourselves, just in, just, in general. So if I've been hurt, let me, let me. Let me give you an example, because that's that'll be the easiest way. Um, my mother left my father and then left my stepfather, and you know she had good reason, but that left me with a feeling of I can't trust women, like women leave.

Speaker 1: 46:21

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 46:22

So I had that belief.

Speaker 1: 46:24

Were you aware of that? It was a subconscious.

Speaker 2: 46:26

No, I'm totally unconscious, totally unconscious, but that that belief was imprinted in me. I mean, I discovered it later in therapy because I was having a lot of problems with women, I was having a lot of problems in relationship and I was single, for, I mean, I was dating, but I was. I couldn't sustain a relationship for any period of time and when I went down the rabbit hole trying to figure out why, I realized that there was some part of me that that didn't trust women, and understandably so, based on my experience. And so what happens? If I'm in relationship with somebody and I don't trust them, they feel that lack of trust and it pushes them away. And the place where they feel not trusted and pushed away, what are they going to do? Mm-hmm, they're probably going to in some sense betray me. That's what I mean Because they're going to act out in some way to confirm my existing belief, mm-hmm. So in that place I have a kind of negative intention. I almost unconsciously want to prove that the woman is untrustworthy, because that's the thing that's going to keep me safe, because what I'm really afraid of is opening up my heart to risk trusting a woman, because if I risk trusting her, she might betray me and then I might get my heart broken. It's a protective mechanism. It's a protective mechanism. So very often we have unconscious negative intentions. I would say what you see going on in the social justice movement. The intention that they're saying is we want to help people. Okay, I think in some cases that is true, but there's an unconscious intention that we want to help people because I want to look good to other people so that I can have status. That's an unconscious negative intention. You don't actually care about those people. You're using them to get status for yourself and to confirm for yourself and for other peoples that you're a quote, unquote good person. So the mind is really tricky and we have to be really vigilant about what and why we're doing things and to mine out any of the shadow feelings or shadow emotions that might be there.

Speaker 1: 49:06

Do you believe in selfless actions?

Speaker 2: 49:09

No, I don't think selfless actions are correct. I think humans should be self-serving, right, and I think now not in a self-aggrand-loving selfish way that is at the expense of others, but we're all self-serving and that's fine. We should all have what we want. I mean, all the best deals, right, should be win-win. Everybody should get what they want, and so I think there's a way that we can all be self-serving. I mean, my lady is in a relationship with me, I hope, because it's serving her.

Speaker 1: 49:44

I don't want her to be doing it for me.

Speaker 2: 49:48

That's not fun, that's not sexy. I want it to be good for her and it should be good for me, and sometimes we have to iron some things out to meet each other's expectations. That's fine, but ultimately I do believe it's wired in and that I don't think it's necessarily bad. I don't think true. Most people who claim to be selfless just have shitty boundaries.

Speaker 1: 50:15

I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I think that when I was more selfless quote unquote in, like, let's say, high school, right, I was a decent person. But as I've really tried to discipline myself and really try to improve as an individual, purely selfishly, my ability to help others has just skyrocketed Right, because I have so many more skills, I know so much more stuff that I'm able to help people in a real way. And it just goes back to like that Jordan Peterson quote of like if you want to save the world, clean your room. That's right.

Speaker 2: 50:52

It's so beautiful, you got to take care of yourself first. I love the Grant Cardone where he says it's selfish to be poor and it's such a striking thing to say. But he goes on to explain like if you have money you can help a lot of people and so it's good to make money. You can do the most good in the world if you make a lot of money. Now you know, obviously that's Grant Cardone. He's got his own perspective, but I think the principle applies, Like not everybody has the intention to make a billion dollars, but I think we should all be striving to be the absolute best version of ourselves for ourselves, but that is also the best way to serve humanity.

Speaker 1: 51:43

And I think you know, as I get older and hear stories about saints and people who've really are really wise, it always seems to come out of some recklessness, right, and they're younger years. Do you think that recklessness or wisdom is a pre recklessness is a prerequisite for wisdom? In a way, it's interesting.

Speaker 2: 52:06

I never thought of that, but it does make sense. There's something about the energy of recklessness that is courageous, it's searching for something, it's willing to take risks, it's willing to be bad, to not be seen as good, it's willing to push the boundaries of things. I mean I would say those are the higher self qualities of recklessness. Certainly there's lower self qualities. You know self destructiveness, resentment, bitterness, revenge. You know all kinds of racking out. I think a lot of people act out from a place of recklessness, but I could see that once you really heal that there's a quality to recklessness that could really serve seekers in particular as adults. I mean, so many people had were delinquent children, difficult children that went on to have enormous success, and it's hard to believe that those two things are in some way correlated like that. In order to be successful, really successful, you have to be a bit of a rebel.

Speaker 1: 53:27

That's what sparked the question is, you brought up Grant Cardone and I. You know I'm not the biggest fan of Grant for some of the things that he says, but he has a very interesting story of being a drug addict and being just a crazy man in his younger years and then of having this massive success later on, and I was just curious the relationship between those two.

Speaker 2: 53:53

Well, I think it's really. Yeah, just what I said. I mean, I know a lot of addicts that have healed, that have gone on to do like amazing things, and there's some life force in them that maybe they can't contain and so, because they can't contain it, they're susceptible to addiction. To help them regulate their energy. It's obviously not a great strategy but, maybe that's the only thing they knew how to do at the time. And then, once they get it together and they're able to focus and channel and contain their energy, then from that place they can create amazing things.

Speaker 1: 54:31

It's almost like a mania in a way. It's like you look at addicts and they always do some. They always do some crazy things in recovery, in the sense of like running ultra marathons or doing things that the average person would think is insane.

Speaker 2: 54:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:47

And it's like this life force or this energy, like you were describing before, is presented within a person. It seems like it's the same energy it takes, like that obsession is like the same energy it takes to be successful.

Speaker 2: 55:00

Yeah, I mean it's also I know this is true for me the thing that the place where of my genius is also the place where I'm completely insane, and the two things are right together. I can't escape it and it's not a thing. That is that I wanted to accept that there is a place in me that's uncontained and wild and neurotic. You know, I have my issues and I don't like them. I don't want to be seen in that way. But the truth is those qualities, those shadow qualities, the light of them is where all of my gifts lie. And so I've just had to accept, like I can't have one without the other. And the deeper I go into my you know, quote unquote genius and we all have a genius, I'm not trying to say that I am a genius but into my genius, the more that shadow material surfaces. And so I'm always having to confront it, be with it, regulate it, deal with it. It just it never goes away. And you know I'm 54 now and you know I've been doing self-help work, all kinds of things, my entire life. And then you just get to a point where you just have to accept yourself as you are the good, the bad, the light and the dark. And then you realize well that that's actually all you ever needed to do, that you're not going to eradicate all of these quote unquote negative aspects of yourself, that the path to salvation, to redemption, to peace is just to come into acceptance of all aspects of who we are.

Speaker 1: 56:54

I think a lot of people's fear with like psychotherapy is that if they heal themselves they'll get rid of the genius.

Speaker 2: 57:02

Yeah, that's it. That's an illusion, that's a defense. I get it. That's what I thought. A lot of people think that what happens when we are traumatized as children and it just, I don't even mean traumatized, just when we're socialized as children the aspects of ourself that the environment approves of, we will accentuate. The aspects of ourself that the environment disapproves of, we will repress and deny. But the uh, repression of aspects of ourself as a child, that's incredibly painful because it feels like who we are, it's just our life force, just our energy, just our impulses. So when we feel like it's not safe to express those, those aspects of ourself, it's, it's actually quite painful and it's scary because now you have a part of you that you believe is a threat to your connection, to your life. So, literally, your survival is at stake. So, um, I'm just giving some context around all of this. So what happens is we?

Speaker 1: 58:16

deform defenses.

Speaker 2: 58:17

Um around that right. Um, we adapt ourselves and to uh fit what we have to do. Um, we adapt ourselves and to uh fit what we perceive our environment wants from us. We, you know this is, we all know this right, we do this and um, in that adaptation, we develop certain skills. So, in my case, I had a little bit of a chaotic childhood, and so my dad wasn't around and it was just my mom, and she was a little uh, yeah, uh, not present all the time, let's say so the environment wasn't safe. So I became hyper vigilant, extremely hyper vigilant, and so I learned to read energy, to read people, to read a room. I was doing it for my own safety. That's how I kept myself safe. Well, that skill set has served me very well as a psychotherapist, because it's very easy for me to tune in to other people, and so we all have these skills that we've developed, um, as children. You know that, that our defenses, that we've, um, we've adapted ourselves. Now, when you go through therapy and you realize what you've been doing, um, and what your defense is and how it's been distorted, like in my case, there's a hyper vigilance. That's not necessary. I'm not a little kid anymore. I don't need to be hyper vigilant, but I don't have to give up the skill that I learned, and this was the thing that I was trying to um can convey to Tate. He doesn't have to give up uh, this uh tough aspect of himself to be vulnerable, that that part of it is always right there. That's always going to be a tool in your toolkit. So and I say this to my clients all the time you don't have to give up the thing. I'm not asking you to give up anything Uh, everything that you have, all the skills you developed, all this energy, um, all your ambition. You don't have to give up anything. All I'm saying to you is that there's more to understand about yourself. There's greater depth to you that you're not aware of, and there's things that are in the shadow that may be unconsciously, um, sabotaging you. And so what I'm trying to convince people of is, if you can know yourself more, if you can understand your history, if you can understand your history, if you can understand your defensive, if you can understand your shadow, that's going to make you more powerful, and the reason it's going to make you more powerful is because it's going to make you more present and you're going to be clear about what's motivating you. And all of those things add up to what I would say is power, efficiency, which I think for most people equals success, whatever that looks like. But that's what we want. So I don't, I don't. I think therapy is, is a, is a, is a is a is a is a is for everyone. Um, I don't think there's a lot of great therapists out there, so I understand people like. I tried therapy. I didn't get anything out of it. Well, you probably had a shitty therapist or you had a therapist. That wasn't right for you, but I can promise you, you know, there's a lot of great therapists out there. Um, I mean the woman that I work with, um, angela, I, uh, she's the one. I mean she's, she's a colleague, but if I'm having any difficulty, I go to her and I can tell you, man, she will set you fucking straight. There are people that know what's going on. They're almost like shamans and, uh, I think they can be incredibly helpful and useful. I again, I, I think you do have to be careful about indulging in continuing to go back on your past and fixating on your pain and and all the problems that happened to you. I, I get that. I, I get all the criticism I did. I did an interview with a guy and that's all we did. I mean, he wrote this article on the tape, you know, on my Tate interview, uh, kind of criticizing me and therapy, and so I reached out to him and I said hey, man, why don't we have a conversation? And he asked me all of these, these questions, uh, about his, his concerns or doubts about therapy or or, um, the effectiveness of it. And, uh, we had an amazing conversation and a lot of things he was saying I I think we're correct. I think there's a lot of valid criticism and I say this all the time, particularly for men if you only have the money for jujitsu or therapy, you should go to jujitsu Like, don't, don't go to therapy over jujitsu. Get in your body, getting connection with other people. Um, you're in a community, you're building self-esteem. That is better for you, I think, than therapy If you can only do one. But I'm sure there's a lot of people that are working out at 10th planet that would get a lot out of my workshops. They would learn a lot about themselves and I would argue it would make them better at jujitsu.

Speaker 1: 1:03:20

I don't think you're wrong with that. I think that um, a lot of times, that subconscious behavior, it just um plays with you a little bit and it takes you out of the present moment. Like you were saying before, and in sports in particular, being in that presence and in that flow is everything and everything success. Yeah, and you know I I had a conversation with a friend who did um a fair bit of psychedelic therapy and he is, I think he's 28. He said he wished he held off doing that until you had more success because it made him drop. Wanting to play status games and competitive games Um, because those, those driving forces that were not good fuel, but they were fuel I understand. He said that he wished he he waited to do those things because that fuel would have served him.

Speaker 2: 1:04:20

That's a fair argument. I mean, I was driven to be an actor unconsciously, because I wanted to win the love of my mother and father. That I didn't realize that until later, but that's what it was, and so would I have had that success without, uh, that pain? I don't. I don't know. Maybe, though, I would have had more maybe if my intention had been cleaner and clearer, uh, I would have pursued it, um, with more vigor and and with more artistry, because there wasn't this undercurrent of insecurity, uh need attached to it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:04

So I understand what your, your friend, is saying, that's an interesting point though the need, because you lose the neediness. And uh, I think Matthew McConaughey said what. What switched him from um having some success in Hollywood to having massive success in Hollywood was saying that he wanted her but didn't need her, and talking about Hollywood as the industry. And uh, that probably holds true for getting in a relationship, getting any type of success whatsoever. When you take away that need or that, it's almost like we way, yeah, that forceful, trying to weight, knuckle your way through things, it flows better and you're able to figure it out more.

Speaker 2: 1:05:45

Yeah, and maybe your friend I mean, I understand why he would feel that way, but maybe he just has to get used to a new way of orienting himself to the world, so it just it just feels that way right now Uh, and he may have to go through, uh, a period of, you know, a liminal space as as he adjusts and adapts, because if you've had one organizing principle of reality for your entire life and then suddenly you decide to give that up, well it's, it's going to take a while to adjust and and and recalibrate, and so there may be a period of time where you're not sure about what it is you want to do, so you feel like you're not motivated, but in fact you're just not motivated by the same thing.

Speaker 1: 1:06:30

That makes a lot of sense to me and I think that, um, when you were talking before about the vision quest and some of these activities that you've done with the Sundance, for me as a seeker, that lights, lights me up and I want to experience something like that. Um, but I also feel like I need to be called to do something like that. How do you think we should know one what to do, like how to go about doing one of those things, finding those things and then knowing when you feel called to it.

Speaker 2: 1:07:02

That's it's a great question and I I made sure that I felt called I, I, you know this. I've been it's long journey, yeah, with this Lakota. Um, I went very slow because of that. I wanted to make sure all along the way that my ego was not involved. And I don't know if that's possible to completely eliminate the ego, but, uh, I wanted to do the best I can and I could and, um, and I work with a lot of good people who kept me in check and, um, I think, help mitigate, uh, against that possible tendency. So that would that would be. The first thing is to have, uh, some kind of spiritual teacher or elder or therapist or somebody who can help you discern what is coming from ego and what is coming from a deeper high, more higher self impulse. Um, be my hard to distinguish. Yeah, it's hard.

Speaker 1: 1:08:10

It is very hard to distinguish.

Speaker 2: 1:08:12

Uh, it's a feeling, but again, I think we can. We can rationalize, we can fool ourselves. What I do. It's a great question, um, is I go to this woman, angela, and I just start talking to her about what's going on for me and how I'm feeling and the decision that I'm wrestling with or what you know, what it is that I'm thinking I want to do, and she will reflect back to me how she feels when she hears me talk. And if she feels a lot of energy and excitement, that's an indication that it's probably a higher self quality. But if she feels something's a little off or the energy's not a little little dead or distorted in some way, or she's confused or unsure that she's feeling, or that's probably an indication that there's, uh, some mixed motivation in what it is that I'm doing and maybe I need to take take a deeper look and see if this is the path that actually want to go on. I think all of this stuff requires, um, a relationship with the sacred. I think you should pray on it and then I think you should ask for signs. That's what I do. I ask for signs and the signs come when, when I'm meant to do something. If I don't get the signs, then okay, I don't, I don't do it, but that's that's what I do all the time I ask the guides, I say, you know, I'm not sure, like, please, please show me a signs. And if I get two or three, which usually is what it is then I know it's a go.

Speaker 1: 1:10:03

So I I graduated college this past spring and, um, when you're talking about these type of vision quests and stuff like that reminds me of rates of passage and I feel like I haven't gone through a proper right of passage from, um, that time of my life of being more of a scholar and now actually taking more action in life Um, and I feel like a rate of passage is due. But even when I think about um, something like the vision quest, it's not all energy and excitement there's. There's some fear there and there's uncertainty.

Speaker 2: 1:10:35

It's scary.

Speaker 1: 1:10:37

Yeah, what do you think about rates, of rates of passage, and how their effect on Having them be lost in the culture?

Speaker 2: 1:10:45

I think they're really important. I didn't grow up with any rites of passage and I think that's part of the reason that I've been drawn to Lakota, because I there was a longing for that and I'm finally getting it at this late age and it feels Great and I and I see the value in it and how much Going through and experiences like that, shared experiences that are connected to a tradition, really bring you into Connection with, with, with other people, other men, and it does something for your soul. Really. It. I think it. Yeah, this is the feeling of connectivity, like that I'm part of something that's bigger than me. I think that's what Rituals give you, these rites of passage, and I think we need initiations that help us transition from boy to man. I mean, the criticism of the culture right now is that men never grow up, and I think that was true for me. I I Don't think I grew up until I was in my late 40s to be what made you grow up. I was getting old and it was scared the hell out of me that I was old and getting old. I was an old but I was getting older and single and Not not lost, because you know, I have my work and and I feel good about my work and and all of that. But there was something I was avoiding, some Responsibility that I didn't want to take on, some aspect of myself that I didn't want to confront, and I think it kept me young, it kept me Juvenile in some way, and I think there was a place where I still had resentment and bitterness about life and at a certain point I realized this is what life is and you can complain about it, you can judge it, but all that's gonna do is Exacerbate your suffering. So life is hard. You have a lot, you've been given a lot. Maybe you should think about being grateful for everything you have, not focusing on the things that you don't have. That's the very definition of selfishness and I kind of slapped myself in the face and, you know, decided to wake up and that's that, and really that's when I went down this Lakota path hard, because it's it's a firm path and it's it's a cruel path in some way. It's not easy and you know they can push you in ways that are unpleasant, but I didn't mind that. I liked it, I needed it and and I'm happy to see that. You know, organizations like sacred sons and others are Doing things to give men these, these rites of passage, because I think they're important and I think they've been lost in the culture and again it goes back to. I think that's why People like Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson are so popular, because they're they're they're sounding the call to men to rise up, be strong, you know, overcome your weakness, take care of your business like, work hard, be disciplined, take responsibility, protect, provide. This is your job, this is your duty, and I think we're hardwired for that. Like when I hear that something wakes up in me and says let's go, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 1:14:21

I think that you know that message right. There is like my reluctance to do something like therapy, because I feel, like most therapists with here, me saying that I want to have a mission and conquer and suffer in a way, and they will almost internalize that as toxic Mm-hmm and they try to kind of not manipulate you in the explicit sense but try to get you to see how that could be possibly not good for you. It seems like it's hard to find a therapist who actually gets it, that makes sense to you.

Speaker 2: 1:14:53

Yeah, I, I agree. I Think unfortunately you know I'm gonna say this people aren't gonna like it. I don't really care. As I said, most therapists are not very good. They've been trained at left-wing, left-wing academic institutes. They've been programmed with an ideology that is Bullshit and it's on some level, it's anti-man and people can debate that. But the American Psychological Association Promoted all kinds of said toxic masculinity as a pathology and I found that deeply offensive and there's a part of me that doesn't want to be lumped in or categorized with that group of people. Now Let me say there's plenty of great therapists out there. There's plenty of people who've gone through academic institutions and are now doing great work with people. But there is a severe bias in in in that profession and and so I am understanding of young men like yourself or like why would I want to go sit with a therapist who's gonna try to convince me that my Aggression or part of me that would dominate or win or be successful is bad? It's not bad. That's why we're here. The re, we are all the descendants of ancestors who were Brutal murderers and committed genocide. That that's why we're here, so that is in us. We can't escape that, and to demonize. It is absurd. We have to, I think, accept it, we have to channel it, we have to understand and evolve that energy, certainly, but the energy of aggression is Absolutely vital and necessary if you want to survive in this world. So I don't I'm not trying to talk anybody out of their Aggression, anybody out, even the. Even the call to dominance I mean, that's how we get great things is People want to, you know, dominate something. I want to make, I want to create the best, whatever Elon Musk, I want to dominate the car industry. There's some Something in that that is that makes incredible things and beautiful things in technology. So, again, there's a shadow to everything. But just because there's a shadow To something, it doesn't mean we should, you know, throw the whole thing out.

Speaker 1: 1:17:42

Totally agree with you. I think Chris Williamson, the host of modern wisdom, he had a clip that one pretty viral, viral recently, talking about the difference between male depression and female depression and how the way that therapists treat male and female depression is the same, where, in reality, female depression, they, they make them feel loved, and in male depression they do the same, but Men, they want to feel powerful. They don't care as much about feeling loved. Yeah, and Just that perspective is interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:18:17

Yeah, that's Adam Lane Smith, and I think he's a really wise man. He's a, he's a therapist, and I think he's doing great work and he speaks to this better than anybody. That that's exactly right. Listen, we all need understanding. I said this earlier. We all need compassion, we all need to be seen, we all need our feelings validated. That's across the board. But Men yeah, men do need to be challenged, and they want to. They do want to, they want to feel powerful, they want to feel useful, and and so just telling a man that their love for exactly who they are doesn't, it doesn't work, man, it doesn't work. We all know that it's like a man feels good when he goes out with a bunch of guys and Accomplishes something, and so that's what men should be doing to get over depression. For me, depression I mean I just wrote about this depression is Unexpected, unexpressed rage and grief, and and so it's not that we are depressed, our feelings are depressed. That's how I see it. It's depressed to great reframe. Yeah, and if we can, and that's you know again what I, what my work is, is helping people express the feelings that have been repressed and held back. But once that Process has happened, yeah, I mean, you're going to feel good about yourself when you are doing things that make you feel good. So I there's no person on this planet that's going to be depressed If they were walking for 90 minutes a day. I just don't believe that. I don't believe that's a thing Like if you're up, get off your ass and you're actually doing things and accomplishing things, even if they're just little things. I just don't think that you're going to be depressed. And I think you know Tate's got a point when he said he doesn't think depression is real in the sense that we're our ancestors to press. They have time to be depressed. They had, they were too busy about it shit and then so in some way, this whole idea that we're depressed, it's kind of an indulgence, but also Maybe we have to take it seriously because it's a product. What I would say is a very Diseased culture that's lost its way, that's lost its values, that has made comfort and Pleasure it's its highest priority, and so in the access to pornography and cheap, you know, salty, sugary food, none of that is is a recipe for a healthy life. So you know the phone addiction, all of it. So maybe there's good reason that people are depressed is because, essentially, that the culture is sick. How do you think?

Speaker 1: 1:21:08

porn's affecting young men. I.

Speaker 2: 1:21:12

Mean. I can only Speculate about what I read. I mean I can't imagine man Like I didn't. We didn't have that when I was a kid, like there was. I mean, I think I watched porn first time in high school but it was like a VHS tape, so it just wasn't accessible. Or you had to go into the convenience store and buy a playboy or Penthouse, but you saw the pictures. I can't imagine what it's like for a Kid 12, 13, 16 To have access to, to that much explicit material, everything that's out there. And I think about me when I was 1721. I mean you're horny all the time. I mean you got hormones pouring through you and you don't really realize how Insane you are until you get older. You look back and you're like, oh my god, I was nuts. You're just. I mean, which of course it makes sense. You're just. You know what does nature want you to do? It wants you to find the mate, it wants you to procreate. So it's like you have, almost, like have a one-track mind. Yeah, you don't. You literally do. You will not realize how insane you are until you, you know, in your I don't know, whatever it happens for you, for me was like About 46,. You know, when I it was just like holy shit, that was nuts. But if you have porn, I mean I'm, I probably would have jerked off 24-7. I don't know how I could have gotten away from it. So I it's a, it's a problem, and just the depletion that it causes and the distortions and and you don't have to go out and and meet a girl, you got there's a new girl on on your TV screen, on your computer screen all the time. And we live in a virtual world, so much so it it's almost like they have crazy sex life. It's just virtual and it's sad. It's very sad, but it's happening. I Don't know if we can change it. I think the force of it is so powerful you can't really outlaw it. I mean I guess you could, but I don't see that going over. So it's, it's a real, it's a real problem. I think it's having a Significant impact on on relationships between men and women. I mean we'll see what happens. I mean I don't know what it is for your generation. I mean you grew up with that and and it, you know, is somebody who grew up in a different time. I, I look at your generation. I just think, wow, how are they even doing it? But I'm sure that you know, my Parents looked at me and thought the same thing. I don't know, Maybe it'll just evolve in some way. That's unexpected, but it feels. It feels sad it does.

Speaker 1: 1:24:07

It does feel sad, it feels like it's taking the sacredness out of relationships and out of that, the meeting between like men and women. It seems like it's very. It sexualizes everything yeah, right the way that it Affects the young man. It makes everything they feel like everything is that right and I don't know. I guess we'll see how the effects of it, but I, what do you think about role, the role models we have for young men right now? You know we've mentioned Tate and Jordan Peterson a ton. Mm-hmm and they're really at the forefront of people who kids are looking up to. Do you think that they're Good role models for people?

Speaker 2: 1:24:55

I do. I think they're. I think they're good men. I don't think either one of them is perfect. I don't. I don't think either one of them would claim to be perfect. I don't think any man should look at one man for all the answers. I think you have to find it within yourself. I think there's things that Tate has to say and Jordan Peterson has to say that are useful, and I think everybody should take what's useful from whoever it is they're paying attention to, following, reading, and, and, and, and, let go of the rest, and ultimately, every man has to find their own path and and Feel resonance with that. I'm glad those guys exist. I'm glad they're out there. I think you're going to see More people evolve, more leaders. I think. I think there's lots of great people in the culture. I think Tim Ferriss is a is a great role model for men. Aubrey, marcus the guys that I know from sacred sons who founded and run that organization. They're fantastic. So I'm seeing a lot of Powerful men rise to the forefront. I feel like their message is is good. I feel like they get it and I think that, if I think that that's going to continue and I think we're going to see a resurgence in In in men and masculinity. I think women, more than anyone, are going to be really happy about about that, because women do not want weak men, they want strong men. They want to be able to follow and trust men and they're not going to follow or trust men who are weak. And I think men are understanding finally that that it's okay for them to step all the way into their power, whatever that looks like. Obviously it's not always going to look like Tate, it's not always going to look like Jordan Peterson. There's a lot of way it can be. It can also be power can be very gentle. You look at these old movie stars back in the day Gary Cooper, I mean just he was a quiet, gentle man. That dude was bad ass. And even John Wayne there's a whole myth Alligy around John Wayne, but if you actually watch his movies he was a gentleman, he was kind and he was dignified and and he was a man of Few words Generally and but the words he said were impactful and you could see he would show up with a deep sense of responsibility and he was accountable and he understood his role. So I'm a big fan of those old school guys. I think, unfortunately, some of the some of the the movie stars we have nowadays you mentioned McConaugh McConaughey. I think he's a great role model. So you know, it's it's it's happening. The pendulum swings. I understand why all this Happened and it's given men an opportunity to look at themselves, because I think it's fair to say, men let women down, will let themselves down. They, they step back, they became corrupt, they indulged in their pursuit of money and and drugs and indiscriminate sex, and so, of course, women were fucking angry about that, and, and maybe women had something to to do with that. They were complicit in some way. I'm certain that they were. But this rise of this, of feminism and and and of this you know the me too and this anger and vitriol that's been directed at men, uh, they probably deserved it, we probably deserved it, and um, was all of it fair?

Speaker 1: 1:28:40

No, with some of it, ridiculous, yes, however, uh, there's something to it, and so it is an opportunity for men to look at themselves, take responsibility, take accountability and and Get back to work, and I think, with all that stuff that's been going on, it's a Misinterpretation or A false dichotomy between like masculine men and weak men Right, whereas a lot of those times, like in the me too movement, these things, it's not the masculine strong men that are doing these things, that's the weaker guys who are Not not weak men are the most dangerous men.

Speaker 2: 1:29:21

Yes, because they're the most successful. Yes, because they're the most susceptible to corruption. Strong men are less susceptible to corruption, so I it's. It's. I made this post on instagram. It's a sin to be weak and people you know did not like that it's like make yourself as strong as possible, like it's your duty to god.

Speaker 1: 1:29:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:29:45

And a lot of people didn't like that. I mean, I think what they they they saw weak is they interpret is that meaning vulnerable, which is not what I meant. That's not the same word, it's, it's different. I think men should be vulnerable. I think it's important to be vulnerable. What vulnerable just means honest, just means real. It just means authentic. It doesn't mean, you know, crying in your woman's arms About something that happened to you at work that was disappointing. That's not vulnerability, that's being a bitch like it's. It's Vulnerability is just, is just being real and honest. So, and I think men should be Vulnerable, um, but I don't think they should be weak and I think it's important, I think it's your obligation as a man to make yourself as strong as possible and For no other reason that it's going to make you feel good. We feel good when we're strong. So make yourself strong, do what you have to do To to make yourself strong, and if you're having a hard time doing that on your own, then you know, join a CrossFit gym, get with a group of guys, do something, get into community where you can be held accountable and and and be with other men and and be in that struggle together to realize that you're not alone. It's imperative. We're an attachment species. We were meant to be in tribes, we're meant to be together, we're meant to grow together. Um, so I would encourage all, all men you know, if you're listening, it's like get involved, get in community, get with other men. You cannot do it alone.

Speaker 1: 1:31:12

Mm-hmm. And there's something you need about the competitive nature of men in general and when you put them in those men's groups and you know there's a goal like I've trained with some friends at this gym right here and you just go a little harder just because there's other men there and there's a Keeps everyone in check.

Speaker 2: 1:31:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:31:37

Uh, and it's. There's something to be said that about being in that community for One, the we just feel so lonely. As a society, we're more connected than ever, but I mean, if you look at the statistics, we're more lonely than ever. So the community aspect of that is great for that. But it also just makes you better at everything. Yeah, because you just want to go harder.

Speaker 2: 1:31:59

Yeah, and it's fun. It's fun to be with a group of guys and and busting balls and competing with each other. It just feels good. And and usually I mean obviously sometimes you know there's some assholes get mixed in there, but generally my experience is, uh, most guys are supporting, supportive, they're, they're, uh, they want the best for you, um, and that that kind of competition is usually done with with uh, great spirit, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 1:32:28

I think Austin is particularly easy to find those yeah, that's our place. But elsewhere it's hard to find those people, I think, especially when you're into improving and like getting better and trying to be uncommon in some way. Uncommon people are uncommon to find, so Finding those groups are even putting yourself in the situations like coming down to Austin meeting these people. It's needed. Yeah, it really is it's hard to find in your hometown.

Speaker 2: 1:33:00

It's probably true. I I have a bias because I've I've lived in big cities where all of that is available. Fortunately, you know, there is the online world and you can find there are groups, there are communities, there are men's groups that you can join. I mean, I host, I'm hosting. Right now it's a 16 week men's intensive that I do. Well, this is the second one I've done. I do it once twice a year, but it's it's just eight guys and we meet every Tuesday night for a couple hours and we, we, we talk, we do process work, I teach a little bit about what I teach about, but also there's an accountability piece. So there's no, no, no porn, no weed, no booze for those 16 weeks and and you got to be working out or exercising in some way and eating healthy and they have to report in every day and they love it. It's it's amazing how much they love being together and being held accountable and how much they get from it. And and it's made me realize all the work that I've done With men exactly what you're saying. There's a lot of lonely guys out there, isolated, and they think that the struggles that they are having, that that no one else is having them. They're, they're alone with it, and so there's a lot of shame, and I think that that's that's really the epidemic that men are facing is. It's an epidemic of shame, and the antidote to shame is to Get with other people and be able to share these vulnerable parts of yourself and and realize that you're not alone, but that it's not just you, that that most men are carrying around Some form of shame, feelings that they're not enough, feelings that they're not lovable, fear of rejection, all of these normal Feelings that that we have, that we want to disassociate from. But we all have it and it's okay and and it it's fine. It's you can. You can Still live your life, you can still show up, you can still do the things you need to do. You can still find a good woman. You don't have to be perfect. As long as you are acting from Integrity and as long as you're continuing to work on yourself In some capacity, as long as you're dedicated, as long as you're committed to something that's that's greater than yourself, you're gonna be fine.

Speaker 1: 1:35:39

Hmm, there's something we said there about the authenticity mentioned in the beginning of this conversation with tape. But Authenticity is a magnet cuz like yeah, so often, especially nowadays it's it's rare to find authentic people and when you do, find those people just such a breath of fresh air that you just want to be surrounded by them well, they're undefended and so they're easy to be with because there's no pretense, and that is very attractive.

Speaker 2: 1:36:15

They they're not putting any Demand on you or on the world to see them in any particular way. And I guess what I mean by that is most of us, on Some level, are trying to control other people's perceptions of us, and you know there's all kinds of ways that we do that. You know how we style our hair, how we dress, which is fine. We're all doing that to some degree. But sometimes we get lost behind the mask and and people can feel that. They can feel when you're not all the way there or you're Presenting an aspect of yourself that doesn't often feel yeah, real, and you're hiding something else. And when you're trying to be in relationship with somebody like that or communicate With somebody like that, what they're asking of you is to be complicit in their resolution. You know, or in in that you have to agree with their mask in some way, if that makes sense and that takes effort, that takes work that now you can't be yourself With them and so now you, you're not really connected. And so when you meet somebody or you're around people who are authentic, they're just being themselves. That gives you permission to be yourself. And then, all of a sudden, there's just a lot more space and openness and and freedom to, to exist and and to explore ideas, and because that's what we're longing for. I mean, what I've learned from all the years of of, you know, studying and then practicing Psychotherapy is that the deepest thing that people are longing for is connection. We just want to be connected, you know, first and foremost to ourselves, and once we're deeply connected to ourselves, it almost becomes effortless to connect other people and so that. That's that idea. Like connectivity Feels good. It feels good to be connected. It's connected is flow and and it's, I think, it's intelligence and it's it's safety and it's comfort and it's pleasure, and disconnection is Pain, it's suffering, it's loneliness, it's isolation, it's confusion. So I think that's what we're all longing for is just deeper sense of connection.

Speaker 1: 1:38:55

Beautifully said. It's beautifully said and that authenticity. It's hard. It's hard and it's hard in the age of the internet, especially because you see so many people who are putting on a front on the internet and it's easy to Put that front on on the internet because they're not with those people 24-7, but when you meet those people in person and you realize that they aren't that person and it, like it, humanizes them and you feel almost more, you feel better about yourself. And I only know this because now, being in this position of creating content for the past 15 months, had the opportunity to meet a ton of people who have big followings on the internet and you see them in real life and how they interact and move through world and you you stop putting them on a pedestal so high because we see these people with these big followings. Is these perfect people, different than us in some fundamental way? But when you come to find out that you know they're just obviously just like everybody else and we just have this big confusion around and we feel in inferior because of the Number on this, the number of followers on a screen or whatever it may be, and I'm sure you saw that with Tate as well, it's like you meet this guy in person. He's human, like he's human.

Speaker 2: 1:40:20

Yeah, but he saw, I gotta say I was gonna say I just got an aura Like it's no joke. Look, I've been around a lot of yeah, I've been. You know, I was in Hollywood for 20 plus years. I met a lot of movie stars, big movie stars, and I don't know that I've ever met anybody quite like Tate. That. That dude's got a big personality. He's a big, strong, handsome fella, he's gregarious, funny. There's something about that dude when you meet him and it's, it's real, he's, he's, he's powerful. That said, yeah, he's just, he's just a guy.

Speaker 1: 1:40:56

You know he's got his own.

Speaker 2: 1:40:58

I mean when I asked him the question about being insecure. Like you could see him, he got insecure. Just the question made him. So he's, he's got his own stuff, just like the rest of us, and and I think that's why that interview, why people responded to it the way they did, because you saw a little bit of that his Human side and his, his tenderness is insecurity, the places where he he doesn't maybe know himself and and he was vulnerable and I think people really appreciated that. But certainly you know what you're talking about. I experienced in in Hollywood Because I went to Hollywood thinking you know these famous actors, they have, they have it all together, their lives totally figured out. And it's the exact opposite. They, they're insane. They're nuts Just like, just like everybody else. I don't mean extra special nuts, but they they're. They're neurotic and Afraid and and they're just. They're just people. They just happen to have this particular talent and and they're very good at it. But you know, they're not inoculated from all the the regular things that we all experience and and that was a eye-opening Experience for me to see that and have that whole industry be Humanized, and but you know, I still do it like I still see somebody on Instagram and See that they have a big following or they make a couple of videos that I'm really impressed by and I'm like, wow, they really got it together and it evokes some insecurity in me. It's amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:42:34

It's amazing that that mechanism it is quite crazy and I'm fascinated by that aura you're describing with tape. Is it the All of those things that you described, or is it like a more spiritual, more a different element from the big, strong, intelligent side of things? Is there something Else to the aura there?

Speaker 2: 1:42:57

Well, his physical presence is Striking. I mean he's, I don't know, six foot three.

Speaker 1: 1:43:06

He's ripped it's like, but perfect like he's got a perfect.

Speaker 2: 1:43:11

He looks like you know, he's like a supermodel, yeah, yeah, and Well dressed, styled, great smile, laugh. He's funny, warm, welcoming, kind, an amazing host, all of that. Right, just, he's just that guy. Yeah and he's at the center of a Firestorm. So this is what I think people don't appreciate about what it's like to be somebody like Tate or Obama or Trump. The amount of projection that is coming at them is just it's insane. Nobody is really seeing them. They come out and People have all of this reaction to them, both love and hate, and their ability to stand inside themselves and hold on to themselves in the face of that mass projection is a skill that very, very, very few people have it's. I think it's unbelievably hard thing to do and I think people don't appreciate how difficult it is and the fact that Tate continues to maintain a sense of humor that he continues to maintain Gravitas, that he continues to just, you know, do his thing unabashedly, fearlessly, in the face of being canceled off, social media, having Governments declare that he's a horribly bad person and bad influence on kids, having Countless articles and tweets and videos made about how to whore what a horrible person he is, and he just keeps going. I don't know if I could do that like. I don't know if I could handle that kind of psychic energy Coming at me and maintain my sanity. So when you meet somebody who's able to hold all that, that's impressive and they there, yeah, there's an aura around that because that's that's real power I mean people could talk about, you know, say whatever you want about Trump. You love me. Hey, I didn't think he's good or he's bad. The, the mass negative projection that he held to me was just, I couldn't believe it. It never got to him. He just was cracking Joe. He didn't care what was going on. The whole world is telling him he's Hitler. He's just up there cracking jokes. He doesn't care. I mean now people would say, oh, he's psychopathic. Now he knows what's going on. Yeah, he's the puppet master of this whole thing and you know that there's some wizard shit happening there that people do not appreciate.

Speaker 1: 1:46:34

but where does that come from? Is it a a Security in oneself, that it's like, yeah, I don't give a shit?

Speaker 2: 1:46:41

I think it's a deep security in oneself. It's a knowing about your own power. I did a narcissism. Oh well, I think it's. I think narcissism is built in again. So I think that's the the shadow of it. I don't think you can escape it, it's. You know, I'm not gonna characterize. Look, I think we're all narcissists. I think American culture is narcissistic. I don't think there's anyone America's not a narcissist. On some level, it's a good point. So some have more narcissism than others, and so people like Trump yeah, is there narcissism there? Absolutely. I mean what we would refer to him as in the context of the work that I do is is psychopathic. It doesn't mean he's like psychopath in the traditional sense, but it's actually a defense. It's a way of A way that they had to adapt themselves to survive their childhood. So Psychopathy is is an adaptation, which is I have to be more than what I am, and so I have to make myself Into something that is amazing and great and powerful In order to get the love and attention that I want from my parents. I am also have that Defense, and so I know exactly what that is, which is probably why I don't feel threatened or Triggered by people like Tate or Trump. I see myself in them and I know the game that they're running. I See what it is they're doing and I see the the goodness in it. For other people, it feels scary and threatening, and I understand that. I'm very sympathetic to that, because they represent the bully in school who beat them up or stole their girlfriend or whatever it was. However, the, this kind of psychopathic defense, the, the light in it, the gift in it, is their masters of energy and they're extraordinarily powerful and they're usually very, very smart and exceptional communicators and they make the best leaders. Now, you know it's what we say the healed psychopath is the greatest leader. And so what you're seeing with these men is you're seeing both the light and the dark in them and you see what you choose to see. If you're a fan of these guys, you see the light. If you hate these guys, if you're triggered by them, you're only going to see their darkness. Both things exist in these men and it's okay. Both the light and the dark exists in everybody. It existed in Obama, whoever your favorite, oprah, whoever your favorite, nelson Mandela, gandhi, mother Teresa. I promise you they had a light and a dark and if you look hard enough, you're gonna see it.

Speaker 1: 1:49:35

Then I'm David. I'm blown away by you. This episode has been absolutely incredible. I've these notes here in front of me. I don't, I don't think we I even looked at it one time and that's just a testimony view to you and the presence you bring, conversation and the insights you have. This has been Phenomenal. I can't say thank you enough for this. Appreciate your eye, thank you, thank you. Is there anything else we haven't talked about today that you want to quickly talk about before we finish today? Not really, I think.

Speaker 2: 1:50:08

I think I mean there's. We could talk forever.

Speaker 1: 1:50:10

We really can.

Speaker 2: 1:50:13

Yeah, go to my website if you want to come, if you're curious about the work that I do. David ceclyphcom, I do workshops here in Austin, texas, every two months and I have all Kinds of offerings all the time. But, yeah, you can sign up for my email list, but come to a workshop in Austin if you really want to have a deep and powerful experience. These Austin workshops are Are an opportunity to really. It's unlike anything you've ever experienced before. I've had a couple people who've done a lot of ayahuasca come to my workshops and say this was way scarier and deeper than my experience with ayahuasca, and I think that's true. So if you're into to going deep and into personal development, check out my workshop we we just rebranded it to life force workshops, so oh yeah, come. I hope to see an awesome, beautiful.

Speaker 1: 1:51:06

Yeah, I'll definitely be taking part in that because that is incredible. I'll link to all that stuff in the show notes. Thank you for this. This was incredible. Thank you, awesome. I.