The Dark Side of Marcus Aurelius and Miyamoto Musashi | Daniele Bolelli

Today, my guest is Daniel Boielli. He is an Italian writer, university professor, martial artist, podcaster and, ultimately, philosopher. He's the author of several books and the host of the History on Fire and Drunken Towers podcast. He is best known by many for making nine plus appearances on the Joe Rogan podcast. This was an incredible episode and I can't wait to share it with you guys. So I'll leave it at that. Catch you guys inside Peace.

Are you doing this work to facilitate growth or to become famous? Which is more important Getting or letting go?

Daniel Boielli, it is such a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for arriving me.

How are you?

doing I'm doing good. In preparation for this episode. I was listening to a few episodes that you've been on, and one of those was on the Align podcast with Aaron.

Alexander.

I found that that one, particularly on this loneliness epidemic, was something that is front of mind and is front of mind with my audience, who tend to be like young men in their 20s. So, for that demographic, what do you think, what do you wish to stress onto those guys that are in their mid 20s, early 20s and they're trying to make sense of things?

I think, structurally, we live in a society that doesn't favor it. You are swimming If you want good human relations with anyone outside of your immediate family. We don't live in a society that favors that, because our society is geared toward work, toward getting stuff done, toward productivity, making money and then going home, locking the door, hugging your PlayStation and screw the rest of the world. That's where it's geared. So if that's how you're built, great, then you've got nothing to do. If you don't really need that much human interaction just a little bit you get through once in a while, you talk to a friend and you're good to go. If you are the kind of person that drives on more human interaction and maybe a little deeper connections with people, then, because you are swimming against the current here, in this particular setup that we live in, you will have to put in more time and energy. You're gonna have to figure out ways, and some of them are honestly not that hard. Some of it is as easy as just calling people back or you're stuck in traffic. Go through the list of people that you haven't chat in a while that are your friends and call them. Some people are weird. They're like you can't call, you have to text first or some stuff. It's like see what works for different people, but basically reach out to people on a regular just because not because you need something, not because there's some drama going on, just because he's like hey, I haven't talked in a while, How's it going? What's going on? Just to be human, just to like some time, and it's something that never happened to me in Italy in that regard, but like in US, when somebody calls me and they just want to say hi, I'm like whoa, you actually want to check up on me. How sweet, you don't want something. That's bizarre and when you think about it, it should be the most normal thing in the world. But we're not really used to slash train to do it, and I think that's an important aspect because it's easy. All you got to do is people reach out, call them back within a decent time frame. If you didn't get that to them, reach, be the one who reach out to them. We instill that because I mean, at the end of the day, you can get along with somebody, you can have the best. In theory, we could be the best of friends, but unless you put the time and energy, you really aren't. You know you're friendly, you have a. You're a cool person, I like you, but you're not really friends. You know it's like seeing each other once every six months. I mean, it's seen each other once every six months. It can be as fun as you want, but that's two hours every six months. That doesn't really change the dynamics all that much, you know. So, and again, you have to figure out if a you want it, be other people want it, and if you do, then act accordingly.

I think the part of that which I really try to, or I have been trying to, really figure out is the hustle culture, productivity side of things. Because as a 23 year old type type A guy who like has these goals and ambitions and things, it's hard for me to understand when I should be working hard, where I should be, like, trying to be as productive as possible, versus just living life, versus leaving home and going to a new city because that's where all the people in the community are that are doing big things there, whatever. How do you think I and anyone really in that situation should think about those things?

I mean, some of it is priorities and nobody and there are no good or bad priorities in this. There are your priorities that work for you. So one is just being very honest with oneself to see what is that would make you happy. Do you need the is? Which part, which side is more important? Because there are a ton of things that are all going to ask for your time and energy and you have to decide where you want to put it. Whether you are and you know most of us would like like, if we're pulled between social life, friends and family and work, getting stuff done, and this we like both, you know we're like I don't want to choose one or the other. So then it becomes your job to try to figure it out. Okay, how do I balance it out? How do I still do what I want to do in terms of hustle, but also, how do I live enough time that I dedicate to people I care about? And some of it could be as easy as because maybe the time is just not there. Some of it could be as easy as, you know, a friend of yours choosing to work in out, and you work out. You're like, hey, why don't we make it a thing that we just work out together on a regular the way you're doing what you're doing. Anyway, you say, oh, I'm going to hit the weights two, three times a week, or I'm going to go running or whatever. But you have at least some interaction with a friend who's there with you sharing in the same activity. You know. I honestly think that's one of the reasons why so many people like stuff like jujitsu. I honestly don't think that many people are really dead excited to spend that many hours just choking each other out. I mean, I love it, it's fun, but I think like half of the reason why people like it is because they have at least the semblance of a community where they see the same faces. They show up three times a week or whatever, and the people will ask them how they are doing. They give each other a hug and you know we live in a society where we have so little of that that, even something that superficial, it's oxygen for a lot of people, it's so. So I think that, like, any opportunity you have to build up a little community, a little human interaction about activities you are already doing, is gold, because because that doesn't require you to take time off for something you enjoy. You know you're not just saying, okay, I'm just gonna make extra time that I barely have for hanging out with friends. You can, of course, if you need it, then you want to. That's a great idea. But if you even feel like I can do that, I'm so caught into disaster. Try to figure out something to to make activities you already do, make them social ones.

And like, if you don't have that community of people around you, like there's such a craving for it that it's not that hard to create for yourself because there's that market for it. Whatever, maybe, if it's weightlifting or jiu-jitsu, there's those communities that you could either create or find that aren't too, aren't too hard to put together.

Absolutely. And and I mean it's like me, coming from Italy gives me the is really a mirror image, because Italy is 100 times better in terms of human interaction and it's 100 times worse in terms of getting stuff done. You know, you as is great stuff done and it's terrible in terms of friendship. Italy is like you call somebody when at the last minute they'll meet you for dinner. They talk to you forever, they interact with you know it's so much easier to make that stuff happen and getting stuff done, launching a new idea, it's a royal pain. So for me, I mean I hate that dichotomies like why does it have to be either? Or you know why do we have to be stuck in this idea that we are either have human life and get to have friends and stuff, or we get stuff done like why can't we combine the best of those both words? But you know that's not up to you as a single part, as an individual, it's up to the society as a whole is geared one way or another. You just have to figure out which way the current is going where you live and how you can tweak it in the direction that you find a little more desirable.

That dichotomies is something that you really opened my eyes to, and the simple idea that it's not one or the other and, like a lot of times, it's both. I think the analogy you said on our first podcast was be the cool like hearted party guy or the deep philosopher that's in their room by themselves, and it's like it doesn't have to be one or one or the other, it can be both of these things and then that. That's just a simple example but it applies to everything and I think changing that lens is so important for people to kind of open up what's possible.

That's why I think I like so much Taoism and the whole in young symbol, because that's what a whole philosophy is about. Right, it's not telling you pick one, it's not like draw a hard line in the sand and there's us versus them, these energy versus that energy, good versus evil, is just telling you look, there are opposite energies in the world and neither one in themselves is good or bad, is depending on who you are, depending on the situation. There's a balance that works and then there are many other balances that don't work, and so it's up to you to figure out what works for you in a particular situation and then you will change. The situation will change so that balance will shift and you have to be ready to recognize it and shift it accordingly. So you can be dogmatic about it's always in the middle, no, sometimes not, so you want to hustle like crazy and you'll have little time for social life, and that's okay in a particular context and other times is completely the other way around. The balance and other times is somewhere in the middle and it's a constant dynamic process and the skill in life is learning how to surf through that and learn how to navigate through that. That, to me is what wisdom is is recognizing the context and adapting accordingly to what you want to get out of the context.

It's letting it's understanding when to run, when to sprint, when to jog when to walk. There's a ton of place for it and it seems, like the like you're saying, that the wisdom is born through knowing when to do what is powerful.

Yeah, and we're so often we are conditioned to the opposite, like what you were saying, where they ask us do you want these or that? Yeah, and those questions are always a trap is like no, I want both. What are you talking about? Why would I choose that? Like no, I'm not playing this game, I absolutely want both.

So the last time we spoke, I think it was about like 14 months ago. What is there anything new that's been front of mind for you since that time?

I mean that was right around the time, I think, when I was really starting history on fire, so I was behind the paywall for a while. So I brought back my history podcast out of full paywall so I'm releasing episodes on a regular. That's fun. I'm enjoying doing that.

And you just did Musashi, which I'm sure is one that so many people are interested in.

I did. I just released part one of Miyamoto Musashi and then in November I left part two, and so that one was. That one is an interesting one, speaking of balance, because you know I, to be perfectly honest, I like Musashi a lot better before I studied more into his life and everything. Because he's in some way he's fantastic, you know there's he's unattached to, he's never in the service of some warlord, he's his own person, very much an individual in a society that was extremely conformist. So that's really cool. He's a strategic genius that's really cool. He's able to become a master and many different arts, is a great artist, is a great swordman, he's a great. You know, he has these, these talent for multiple things, which is wonderful. Not being a complete specialist, but speaking of social life, the question I have with Musashi is what for? Because it's like when you read about his life, he strikes you as a real lonely, cut off from society, partially by choice, but partially there's something off there. You know where I'm like. Okay, you don't have a family, you don't have kids, you don't really seem to have deep friendships or contact. You're preaching this hardcore, stoic idea of just you by yourself, in your cave with your sword and your brush. And I mean, if that's how you are, if that's how you're built, good for you. You figure out a way that works for you. Nothing wrong. I have a hard time to relate because it's such a lonely path that seems to be doesn't really seem to affect anyone else's life in a particularly positive way, and I'm not saying that everything we should be doing is for somebody else. But there's something to be said about being able to use whatever strength or talent you develop to actually also bring a smile to other people, to improve other people's lives too. So that part of Musashi I was like, oh, that's a little harsh way to live.

It reminds me of the cost of greatness like Michael Jordan, tiger Woods, just these guys who you know they accomplish amazing things. But then if you sit down and say, do I want their life? The answer is, for most people, no, no exactly 100%.

You know there's obsessiveness, certainly gives you some power, but it's also a dark power that leads to unhealthy places. You achieve this thing where everybody goes oh, the greatest player ever, the greatest decent that. But again, if you come home and you don't really have a relationship with your family, you don't really, it's like what are you doing that for? So that you have your name in the record books? Never mind the fact that your name in the record book is pretty much going to vanish within a few generations and nobody's really going to remember you anyway. So what exactly is the point there? You know and yeah, I'm with you I don't think that's how you develop a healthy human being.

I think this is why, one of the reasons why I've always been drawn to how you talk about things, because I remember being in a philosophy class and they asked us why we wanted to be in the class and my answer was I'm obsessed with learning about the art of living, and I think so much of what you do is driven by finding that art and finding, like, what is this happy medium, the yin yang of a good life?

Absolutely.

So yeah, with that said, if you were going to teach, if you were given a university or given a school and they gave you free reign across the curriculum. Two one just develop a complete mind for the kids, but to also help them live a good life.

How do?

you think you would organize that?

I mean, I think there's like one game that I used to play. A lot was thinking if money wasn't an issue and I could just learn, you know. So my days are empty in that sense because I don't need to work for a living. Of course that's not the case In the, in utopia. I was thinking like what would that be like? And so then I would start thinking about what are the things I would love to learn about, and I would make never ending list of completely ridiculous stuff, because, of course, you need 50 lifetimes to learn all those things. Right, there's no way I can learn them all. But it started giving me ideas about what are things that I enjoy, that I can see myself having fun playing with, and stuff. And then you start narrowing down that list and I would start going down stuff that's really closer to my heart, not as just as a random curiosity, but it's something that I deeply care about, and I think those lists are different from everybody. But I think, like some things that are not different from everybody is you need some kind of a relationship with your physical self. You need to figure out some activity that makes you sweat, that makes you, that works your body. For me it's primarily martial arts or lifting weights for somebody, but honestly I like them all. You know. It's like anything from swimming to whatever the hell you know. You need it from just about every sport. That is, to me, anything that makes you sweat. There's something about your body that sometimes, when your moods are overpowering and crappy and you can't really shift them, going through the body helps, you know, getting that adrenaline going, getting the endorphins flowing, sweating stuff out. It's like it's an amazing. In that sense the body is an amazing psychedelic. It helps you to change your state of consciousness, like a few other things. So there's a whole bunch there of different things that are physical, that are related to the body. There's a lot that's more philosophical, so to speak, but I don't use the word philosophy in an academic sense, like the kind of crap that sometimes they teach you in academic courses. I mean it more in an unfulpractical way, like stuff that helps you find a better way of living, ideas that help you feel, navigate the world in a better, more, in a better way. So something on the mental level that has its philosophy but with a very practical band to it. So there's that for sure. There's a bunch of stuff that's very specific, that you know. There are all sorts of art forms, whether art in the literal sense anything from painting to learning how to program video games, to learning how to make movies, to be in a musician, to be in you know, some kind of art form that allows you to channel some of the emotions you have inside, some of the stuff you have inside, in in an artistic way. I think it's fantastic. Most people need it and, again, not everybody's the same. Maybe for somebody who's more they love they become an architect and they love the drawing, designing houses and imagining spaces that are physical spaces where people get to live in, and they design these beautiful things that help people have lived better lives. That, to me, is an art as well. So those are some of them. For sure there's, I mean, really quick and good, at least because there are so many, but those are just some of the big ones. I think those are good foundational blocks on which to build. The forerunner.

So if we were to almost change that to what are the foundations of living a good life? I think, it's going to come down to having something that you love to sweat for, like you're excited to work hard for in a physical sense, having an artistic creative outlet, and then having a thing you're curious about, that you're learning about. What else do you think makes for that life?

I think something and I use the word in a non-religious way, but I think we need. We need the rituals, rituals, and by rituals what I mean is this it can be going to the gym and doing Jiu-Jitsu, it can be something far from religious, but the idea being, what are rituals? In that sense, they are experiences that help you bring back something you lost along the way. Maybe your mind got clouded by all sort of bad things that happened. Maybe you are in a bad mood, maybe you got stuck with work, stuff that's giving you anxiety. Maybe a ritual to me, is a way to rekindle the fire, to kind of get you back, sort of polish that mirror that allow you to get back to a place of clarity when you are feeling good, when you are feeling grounded, when you are feeling non-anxious, and take something like. That's one thing that I actually do throughout the world, pretty much in many different cultures. Some people would do it through more religious things, some people would not, but like a classic thing that you find across the globe is people doing sweats, whether it's a sauna, whether it's a sweat lodge, whether it's something where people would get together and get into this really hot space sweat like crazy. For some people that's all there is. They chit chat with their buddies while they are having a sauna. For some people it's a religious experience, like all the cultures that do sweat lodges and stuff, but like that's a powerful ritual, you know, it involves your body. It really puts you in a different state because of the heat and the sweat. It can be communal, where it's something that can be done with other people, and again, it can be structured in so many different ways, from pleasant hangout with friends shooting the sheet to these deep religious things. I'm not even advocating one or the other, but like the point being those are moments that help you press the reset button on your day, on your state of mind, on. So finding the rituals, I think is an important thing for mental health.

It seems like we've had this death of rate of passages and when you talk about rituals it reminds me of that and how, for most of time, there was a thing for young men in their 20s or in their late teens that really solidified boyhood to adulthood, and it seems like we've kind of gone away from those rate of passages. Do you think that that has a detrimental effect on us in some way?

100%, 100%. Because these are things that I mean there's a reason why you find them all over the globe, in just about every society is because they speak to something in the human psyche that helps us, that helps us, that helps to take us through some shifts in our life. I mean, I'm just talking rituals in a more day to day level, in kind of as a regular thing, but even like particular rituals that you're referring to, that help you shift from one phase of your life to another. Those are important. Those are important. I mean think about at the most basic level, think about people who return from the army or who return even more so, who return from the army after having been at war. You know you have been through probably some really traumatic stuff, but also you, while, yes, you have been through a lot of traumatic stuff, you spend just about every minute of your life, or the past whatever many years, in close contact, in close camaraderie with a bunch of other guys your age who, more likely than now, you have built a super strong bond with. Now your time is up, you leave the army, you go back here in your apartment by yourself. You no longer have like this thing that has fed you for the past few years of just being in this tight knit unit like this little tribe, is gone and you're just left alone with your whatever traumatic memories you got from being in intense situations. I mean that's a recipe for PTSD, right. There is no reintegration into regular society. You go from being part of a community to being alone. I mean, no wonder people got messed up, you know, and I think is wild PTSD something people can experience in just about every culture due to some traumatic stuff they have gone through. It's so much easier in a context in which that community is not gone or you replace it with a different community. You are part and there is a right of passage to sort of reintroduce you back into society where you don't go from the battlefield one day to shopping at the grocery store the next, with no transition. You know where there's a bit of like, I mean even psychologically. You know the stuff that makes you a good soldier in the middle of the war is not the stuff that makes you a good citizen hanging out with your kids the next day. Those are very different energies and so to be able to slowly turn one off and turn the other one on, maybe helped by a process that takes you through that not just assume is like, oh, you're off today, so now go back to being a nice father who plays with your kids and they scream and yell, you're patient and kind. After we just thought you out to shoot at people from. It's like it's too much of a shift. You know, most people don't have it that dramatic. I'm just using that example because, of course is a more dramatic one. But still, you know the even. If you're like working nonstop all the time and you're hustle, hustle, hustle and you have to come home and take care of your kids. It's jarring, you know, because it's like you go from one mindset where radically different one. And if you bring the energy of the hustle to when you're taking care of your kids, before you know it they're going to do something that piss you off. You start yelling and screaming at them and it's terrible. You know you're not going to be doing a good job as a parent.

I think about that and, like we do with all things, I filter it through my own experience and I'm 23 and graduate college in the spring of last year and I think about how that time period from finishing college to now and there's two things that stick out as one College is one of the last times we have a very solid community around us and we all live in the apartment complex together and it's like all these things that are very core, like I didn't even love my time in university academically, but from a community standpoint it was incredible. And then the second is this rate of passage stuff. We have our graduation ceremony, but my intuition tells me that that is lacking in many ways in a rate of passage sense. So what do you think like for a time of your life like that you can do, to almost do your own rate of passage, I mean?

in that sense and this is a classic and I'm not saying anything new, but like one thing that a lot of people do either after high school or after college is travel. Yeah, and that's because it's like you cannot go, as you say, from just the one dimension where you're surrounded by your friends all day long in this other world in which you're not going to be and it's going to be so radically different. And you know, you are a student. I expected instead to get a job, do this, do that. That's why a bunch of people travel just to if they, of course, they can afford it, because that's not an easy thing to do Like you, just to get to go on this adventure away from everything you know, away away from the familiar, away from it all, and just get to experience what it's like to be human and not in school, not at work, not in your familiar surroundings. You just get to be, you exploring the world. I mean, how cool is that? That's a phenomenal right of passage right. It's one that I think there's a reason why a lot of people gravitate to that, even though nobody may have articulated to them as a right of passage because it is because it helps you transition in between, like travel, almost by definition, is this liminal space in between something and something. You know you come from somewhere, eventually you're gonna end up somewhere, and they are in this transitional space, which is pretty much the textbook definition of what a right of passage will do is take you through that space.

What do you think the value of the lessons that travel teaches you?

You run and witness a bunch of people involved in very different ways of life that maybe you never thought of. And you are exposed to that and you're like, you see what you like about it. You see forces you to look at your priorities, what you maybe some. You see people structuring their daily life in a way you never thought of and you're like, yeah, I like that better. There's something I want to build in my life where I want that. You know, these fucking guys, every, at the end of every day, they get together with their friends and chit chat over food. I like that. There's something cool about that. Maybe when I start my own life I want to bring something like that. Maybe it's socially, it's harder where I live, but maybe once a week I want to have a get together with my friend with food and we make it a regular thing and it's you know it can be. You're exposed to so many different things that are far from your surroundings and so it can be inspiring to. It can give you ideas about stuff you enjoy, stuff that you appreciate in other ways of organizing life that you can try to bring back in your own. So that's one thing. Another thing is it tends to. It tends to cut out all the like your priority shift. You know you have to figure out where you're gonna sleep, get there food. You know you go back to basics. In a lot of ways we tend to reduce stress that sometime when you just you know your absolute basics are taken care of. But now there's this sense of emptiness of like, okay, what am I supposed to do with myself? That's meaningful, you know, I have a roof over my head, I have food. Clearly, when you have to worry about the things there is, that's its own set of stress. But there's also something calming about it because your priorities are very clear, whereas sometime people get lost when there's too much space and their priorities are not super clear. Like that, back to basics, back to shelter, food and things like that. So sometime it's much easier to instill new habits when you travel, like, for example, if I'm not noticing times when I realize, man, I'm eating so much damn sugar. I'm doing, I'm just so addicted to something. And now I'm traveling and that's not really an option anymore because I'm not right next to my free, I'm going all over the place, living through this adventure, and then I realize, oh man, my relationship with food change a whole lot, and then it becomes a little easier, when you come back, not to fall in the same pattern at least not quickly. Maybe you will, but it will take a year or two or something, and then you can do something else to bring you back to the ritual idea. Right, you can go back to something that shifts it again. So I think the fact that you're out of the ordinary experience allows you both to learn things, to shift your priorities, to create new habits, because habits are a really hard thing to start so be travel is one of the things that can help you, being in that space where it's easier to drop all the habits and create new ones, and never mind the fact that he's fun. You know you got to eat different foods, meet different people, see cool places and all of that.

It's. You mentioned meaning in there and alongside of this loneliness epidemic, I also feel like there is a meaningness crisis going on and my intuition says those two things are related. But I suspect that you've thought a lot about meaning.

I agree with you. I think they are intimately tied together. I think one of the issues with having a society that's all built around the individual is that we end up doing a lot of naval gazing about like why do I feel this way? Why do I? When you are a little more or less self obsessed and also put more attention in other people around you, I think there's something healthy that comes up. Like maybe you are going through something, like you make your priority trying to do something kind for somebody on that day, trying to bring somebody else's smile. That's actually on the surface. You are helping somebody else, but you're really primarily helping your own mental health, because that will help you shift away from the self obsessive mode of analyzing your every action and feeling like there's no, like you did something great for somebody. You have to make them smile, they walk away, they got improved by 2%. There's meaning in that you did something that left a mark. Today, I think there's something to be said for things that we do for other people in a way that we would never do for ourselves, that bring us a sense of meaning, and I think that's why, as you said, the connection there. I think when you live as part of the way we live for hundreds of thousands of years. When you live as part of a tribe, making sure that everybody's taking care of, taking care of your people, watching out for people do it, that gave us meaning. That gave us you have a place in this community and what you do matters. I think that's extremely important. Now, even if you don't live in a tribe and you don't have that set up, I think there's something to be said about putting your focus sometime and not saying all the time, but sometime on the outside, sometime just thinking about how can I go about my day in a way that will bring a smile to somebody? You know how can? What can I do? That Maybe I can't help myself? What can I do for somebody else? And that's started a cycle where it becomes a little easier for you to feel better too.

It's interesting hearing you say that and then thinking about all of these individuals who have gone off and done all of this psychedelic medicine and ayahuasca and all this stuff and it tends to be, from what I've seen, single guys in their late 30s and early 40s and it seems like there's something to be said there about the individual and not having those kids or that thing outside of themselves to focus on so much and to be a servant of sparking a lack of meaning in a way.

Yeah, and I think that kind of goes back to that idea of balance. You know, because it's like you need both. You know you need to take care of yourself and sometimes yourself alone, not always be at the service of somebody else, not always really figure out what is that you need and you need that. You also need to step outside of yourself and worry about other people and stop the when taking care of yourself become obsessive or naval gazing and instead you're doing something that has a meaning outside of yourself. That's exactly what I mean about making you choose between one approach and the other is ridiculous. It's like both are important and you need to figure out when maybe you have gone a little too heavy on one side and is no longer delivering those results and you need to go out of that comfort zone to the other direction. I don't think either or is bad or good for that matter. They both have potential, it's, and you probably need both.

And that balance isn't always 50-52. It's like 99 one yeah. Yeah, a lot could be said about that.

And that's the mistake that people make. When they hear balance, they think, oh, avoid the extremes. It's like, no, maybe you go to an extreme at one point and you need it, and that's the right thing, as long as you remember your way back.

Yes, that's always what I loved about. I read Matthew McConaughey's book Green Lights and that was the thing that I really loved about him is he was very extreme in both directions. To find that balance, he would go live with the monks and be silent for a month and then go out to Hollywood and party his face off. But he did it with a certain awareness and intentionality of finding the balance through the polarities. And there's something that he said about that especially when you're young, there's like a certain recklessness that sparks wisdom.

It seems like yeah, yeah, I think a hundred percent is like people. You know, very often people get into this mindset that, like sacred or spiritual or whatever the hell it is, is this other dimension, away from daily life. You know, you have to be this monk in a cave, in a mountain with clouds of incense and that's the four. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's something cool about that too, but that's like one of 10,000 ways that you can tackle life and drink its juice, so to speak. You know, it's like it's not that playing with kids and laughing like an idiot with your friends is any less rewarding or spiritual. Yeah, to me it's like. That's why, like one of my idols that I cover in history on fire and a couple of episodes about IQ, was the Zen monk. But you know, his thing was he considered sex, drinking and Zen all viable paths to spirituality, which, of course, on one end, is funny because like wait, what are you talking about? There's a and to him is like it's how you approach things, more than what you do, is the energy you bring to them, the awareness you bring to them. It's and he intentionally, was making almost sacrilegious points about being like there is no sacred and profane. It's a way to approach life, regardless of what you're doing. You know, day to day, life can be the most spiritual thing in the world, and the spiritual doesn't have to be this made up image of what spirituality is.

That energy, that certain awareness you bring into things and it reminds me of a quote you said in our first podcast that I bring up often and I reflect on often and I'd be curious to hear you dive into it a little further. And you said every great hunter knows you never stared an animal too long. They'll feel it.

Yeah, where I was going with that, I'm wondering, I'm trying to think, because I know exactly in the context, I know what I was trying to say. What do you remember, what we were applying it to?

I don't remember if this came before after, but I think we were talking about love for and how. I think you were talking about giving a massage, and when you are really focused on giving a massage versus when your mind would start to drift a bit, immediately your wife would be able to know yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think that that's where how it came up.

And you know there's a sweet spot there, right.

Because if you are like, okay, I'm going under the scapula, moving at 90 degrees is like over thinking, right, it is like then you are too focused, in a way that kills spontaneity. If you are unfocused and your mind is somewhere else, you're not going to do a good job. So you have to have that sweet spot between a relaxed focus. You know, I thought you're paying attention to what you're doing by also not obsessively paying attention to what you're doing, where you allow some room for spontaneity to kick in and relax a little bit. So, as usual is this dance between energies, where it's not about being hyper focus, is not being unfocused, is somewhere in there there's that sweet spot that allows you to deliver the right results, and that's actually what I like about a lot of art forms, physical things, that they immediate feedback. You know, you see if it's working or not, and so then you can say, okay, clearly the balance is off, let me tweak it a little. Still off. Okay, let's try this. And you know, you can run experiments on your sensitivity, on your ability to read the situation. Yeah, I agree.

It's what I love about sports competitive sports, like when I was in high school and the dance between energies, and baseball in particular, was my sport of choice. And it's an interesting dance between energies because you need to be so. If you tense up too much, it's hard and it's one of those things where you really need to be relaxed and it's an interesting dance between it and I think for a while I was thinking that I really missed baseball. What I really missed was that dance Yep, and I think, in a way, podcasting has been a great avenue for that, because it's very similar in that way. It's very similar in that regard and it's almost like a flow state. It's peace from mind in a way.

Absolutely, absolutely. That's what's enjoyable about stuff like that when you find and again you said it like the flow state is like when you find that spot, everything feels awesome. You know, and you can find it through just about any activity in the world you can find. That's what I think was one of the cool things about Musashi you know he can be this amazing swordfighter, but then he's a painter, he's a calligrapher, he's a sculptor, he does, he finds that flow through a whole bunch of different languages, so to speak, so he's not bound to this one thing. And that's one of the things I always find the saddest is when you see, maybe you know somebody for one particular activity you both enjoy, and then you know, maybe they are like oh like send you a friend request on Facebook or some social media stuff, whatever it is, and you look at, their entire social media is based on that one thing and they're like Jesus man, I mean, I like it. But there's other stuff in life. You know there's. Maybe you know, just because you found one place where you can feel that, trust me, you can find many other places where you can feel the stuff.

That Musashi quote, when you know the way, broad, broadly, you see the way and all things, is one of my favorites. It's so beautiful.

That is a beautiful one. That is undeniably one of the cool. It's a fantastic quote.

And it's just to that point right of the flow and the art of doing all these different things. It's almost the same journey of getting good and of getting competent in those things. It seems like there's a real beautiful flow to that.

Yeah, there, definitely is, and I think that's where that's the good stuff about Musashi. You know where? He goes into that ability to not be bound by a particular way, but teach you that a bunch of ways can take you there and they are all valid. It's a very Zen thing in that regard. The idea that all art forms can can be a vehicle for a Zen consciousness.

So what surprised you about Musashi? Was it this darker side to him?

Yeah, and it's funny because I had the same feeling when I did the episodes on Marcus Aurelius. And I don't think it's a coincidence is that because they both emphasize heavy stoicism and I like stoicism to a point. There's something about, you know, that ability to be unaffected by outside reality, at least to some degree, and to keep a center, and all of that. That's beautiful. The problem is that it ends up in some cases to be this very joy, denying the worldview. You know, it's like Marcus Aurelius, like half of the time you're wondering why don't you just shoot yourself? Because it's like everything you're saying is about duty and pleasure is a distraction and human relationships are a distraction, and this is a distraction. And you know, one of his lines was like sex. Sex is nothing but an exchange of mucus and sweat. And you're like, wow, I wonder why your wife cheated on you. Like such a romantic, it's hard to. It's like he has a worldview. That's so, I mean, really the only thing. He seems to care about his duty. And I'm like I don't know, I don't care that much about it. I'm like I want to enjoy life. If you're not enjoying life, what the hell is the point? And he takes toy season to a place where I don't find it healthy anymore. Um, mosaishi, to some degree I get the same feeling. You know where it's, so cut off from any like he. Basically, I forgot exactly how he phrase it, but in not so many words you can see their love, a silly human emotion. And wait, you know it's a distraction for me. I'm like Jesus man, you're preaching a loveless life as this ideal. Yike, you know there's something there that does not seem the most mentally well adjusted thing in the world. And, and both of those guys again, they both have great quotes, they both have points that they bring up that are very valuable and I'm not denying that there's a reason why people like Marcus already is why people like mosaishi. There's definitely good stuff, but I feel that they take that good stuff to such an extreme that, for me, loses all humanity.

Mm, hmm, so that dark side of Marcus Aurelius was just putting duty above everything and being so anti enjoyment of life. And yeah, it's interesting and I'm trying to piece through that and that what I'm coming back to is this quote from Jordan Peterson, and I don't know the exact quote, but it's something along the lines of happiness is so fleeting that you need somewhere firmer to plant your flag, and it sounds like Marcus Aurelius planted his flag towards duty. Yeah, and I would be curious for you like where do you think is a firmer, better place to plant our flag? If this pleasure and happiness is too fleeting and too meaningless, in a way, to plant your flag there, where do you think a good place would be to?

I mean the pleasure, happiness being fleeting. I think it depends how you define it, because you know, of course, the highs that are super high are, by definition, not every other moment. You know they are highs, they are highlights of the day. If you're going to wait to feel good about things only when you feel the high, well good luck, because you're going to have it once, twice, three times a week, whatever many times, but then you're going to have every other moment in between the highs where you feel like, okay, now, what, this sucks, Where's my high? You know you cannot be. If that's your right and it sounds like that, maybe Jordan Peter, somebody, if that's the idea of happiness, I think there's a problem because that's unsustainable. You know, it's like you cannot think that just the super high moment is a source of happiness because they are rare. You know, even if they are once a day, they are still rare because there's 23 more hours in the day, kind of thing. So to me there's something about enjoy the highs. When they come, they're awesome, they feel great, but also finding a baseline. That's more is not about how you know explosion and color and fun, and it's more about a baseline of contentment with the way things are, of just satisfaction with the ordinary living. There's a great Zen thing that's about the. The wonder was miracle. That is to chop wood and draw water from the well, which, of course, at the time when they were written they were the most ordinary activity that everybody would do every day. You know you need wood to stay warm. You draw water from the well. So it's talking about the most basic day to day activity and the whole point to him was like finding the miracle in that, finding the beauty in every second. Now wait for the moment. That blows your mind. Some of it comes from gratitude and it's a way of like looking at life right. It's like I can be thinking about. I don't have these. I want this done, I can get this, and you know there's always stuff that's not working, that I would want it to be better, but if I'm waiting for my happiness to come when I have all those things, it never will, because even when I achieve those things, there will be other things that I want that I don't have, and so on. And so keeping my mind in two places at once on one level the direction where I want to go I want certain things to happen, so I'm going to work to make them happen. And on the other hand, I'm sitting here looking around exactly as things are right now and find a way to enjoy is like that feeling of like nothing needs to change, everything is perfect as it is, and you're like no, it's not, I want this thing. That is like both are true at the same time. You know, having that feeling of like these as it is right now, with all its problem and all that I need to find a way to to be grateful for it, and, at the same time, looking for the highlight, looking to bring things to a higher place, and so on and in hand, you know you are constantly looking for the next thing. Even when you get it, you'll get a Jordan Peterson thing is fleeting. It lasts an hour. You put yourself on the back, you're ecstatic and now you're back to ground zero. You need that other side to it, the miracle of everyday moment kind of feeling, that appreciation for the most mundane aspects of life, and I think it's a muscle, I think you cultivate it by paying attention to things in a certain way, by reminding you of certain things that are going to a shower and there's this miraculous warm, nice water and they look in. I have my own private waterfall in my bathroom. How cool is that? You know it's like it's, you know, paying attention to when you eat. I can just shove a bunch of food down my mouth, which, by the way, I do it and we, like a wall feel by seconds. But also there's something to be said for really tasting that food. Now, like I'm eating while I'm looking at email, while I'm talking to somebody, while I'm doing is like I'm going through the motion. I'm not deriving any pleasure from it. Really, have a moment where man, this tastes so good, you know, really dive deep into that sensation and then the same activity that was just ordinary, whatever, now becomes a source of pleasure, even happiness, if you define happiness in a slightly different way.

Yeah, it's that striving for heaven but yet, at the same time, just enjoying the day Absolutely.

Yeah, and it's an exercise, right. I struggled with it Like there's in the past year. I got super happy a few months ago because I finished writing a novel and I never wrote a written fiction before and I was super happy with how it came out. And I'm just having the hardest time with publishing. Industry is a strange beast. So I'm having a hard time with agents and somebody told me that, oh yeah, the stuff you're writing in historical fiction right now, 90% of the readers are women, and so almost every other book is a romance fiction set in the past in historical fiction. And I'm like what the hell? So I come up with all these examples that are not and they're like yeah, those are all at least 20 or so old or older. You know most. That's not what people are publishing or reading today. And so I'm like oh, this sucks. Point being, I have this frustration of like I really want to get it out there, I really want to do these. It's really pissing me off because I have this strong it's a passion project I put so much and I'm struggling to make it go where I want it to go. And I can dwell on that and I do from time to time and then I'm miserable, I'm pissed. I have this sense of hunger, I have this sense of luck of something that I cannot feel. I feel like frustrated, or I can sit back and just think I got to write something I really enjoyed. Family and friends will read it and they're having a blast. I'm sitting in a garden and I'm eating good food. What the hell do you have to complain? I mean, this is great, like sure, it would be great if you publish it and people read it. And you know, in the great scheme of seeing is really not that big of a deal. You have like about 12,000 other things to be grateful for right now and I shift right. I some moments I forget and I'm like, yeah, but I want that one thing and I'm mad that I don't have it. And then the other moments like shut up. This is as good as it gets.

Yeah, I mean, I get it, but in that example seems like there's also just the third option of all those other books that were written that were in the past 20 years, or that this is like a rare category that isn't used too much nowadays. I mean, but you're also very rare individual with an incredibly rare network of people that you know and you're friends with, and it seems like it's one of those things that it's like it's the advice that a publisher would give to all the other novelists and it doesn't perfectly apply to your situation.

No, and I mean, that's how it is. It's like you're always looking to carve an exception, but of course, when you're looking to carve an exception, you're swimming against the current. You know you're going to have to work three times as hard to get something done, but that's the reality with all sorts of stuff. You know, if I think about all the projects I have, all the ideas I have that I enjoy, the overwhelming majority are never going to work. And it's a frustrating feeling because they are all your babies. You know, you're all like. You see, it is like oh, this is going to be so fun, this is great, we could do this and that, and most of them are going to go nowhere. And so there's one way to look at it and be really frustrated, because it's like you have all these ideas and only some of them see the light of day. And there's another way to see it, as a just part of the game. You know you have a bunch of ideas and if one every 10 goes in a meaningful way, you're doing good. That's one more than most people. And and but yeah, it's a dance right there. You know I do shift from frustration to what am I frustrated about? This is as good as it gets, and back and forth.

There's also something we said there that if that success was a given that it would take, make the whole thing meaningless and there would be no courage in writing the book or no greatness in it because success was guaranteed. So, like it's, there's a beauty in that as well.

I think the stuff that strikes me, for people who really have built a bit of a culture on the hustle, on working hard, on discipline on these, and they will deliver a result. I think one of the sources of frustration is realizing the randomness of it all. That, you know, is like I was in the car with my daughter and I was listening to music and I played two songs and like how do you think they stuck up with one another in terms of quality? And she was like no, they're both amazing, they're I mean, they're these little different, but they're both fantastic songs, really high level of votes. And I was like, well, the first is Amy Winehouse and she sold like three gazillion copies. The next one is a friend of mine and I think his mom bought a copy and five friends and nobody will ever hear it. And she was like how is that a thing? They are right there in terms of quality. You know one can prefer one or the other, but they are. And I'm like, unfortunately, quality is one of about 40 factors that go into something is successful in that sense or not. Yeah, so if you think that just because you work hard and have the discipline and have the will power and even develop talent that's gonna go somewhere. That just buy you the lottery ticket.

you know you still need to win the lottery, then it reminds me of a story I heard on a podcast recently, where the guest was saying that they had a good friend who, for the longest time, was a graphic designer for nightclub flyers. So just nothing special, just making a few thousand dollars every year here and there. But he was so talented at graphic design and then, based on the advice of the guest, he went to Dubai and got into the cryptocurrency scene blah, blah, blah, web 3. And then now he's like this famous. What are those images called the NFTs? Yes, he's like a famous NFT artist and he's making millions of dollars. It's the same skillset, just applied in two different things.

I mean, even I think about, like realistically, I had a very good run, I still do to some degree with history on fire in terms of success and audience and even making money. None of that would have happened if he wasn't for the fact that I had a couple of well, actually a long string of lucky breaks. You know, I ended up on Rogan podcast nine times for no particular good reason. I think he was just a weird alignment of the stars, and I mean, after the first time, he liked me and the audience liked me, so that's why he had me back. But, like the first time was completely random for me being there, I, you know, I had support from people like Don Carlin pushing it to a TSA. You know, I had a bunch of lucky breaks. I could have created history on fire exactly the same way and he could have had the 150th of the audience with no changing quality whatsoever.

What I've been thinking about with that, or in context to that, is increasing your surface area of luckiness, you know, by doing the right things and a good person making amazing work whatever, and then you stack up that probability that you do get that lucky break like in your example as well.

It's the equivalent, in fact, even like not only be nice, but also talent is something that radar than every one lottery tickets. Now you have 50 lottery tickets. Your odds have definitely improved. They are still a far away from a guarantee, but you have better odds than you did before, thanks to hard work and discipline and talent. But again, I think we stand to skip that passage where we think hard work, discipline, talent equals an outcome and it's like no, it just increases the odds of that outcome and those odds are still suck, but they are better than they were before. Like we're so used to hearing, there's that survivor bias that we always hear the stories of the ones who made it, of the ones who and can you believe that suddenly I went from living in the gutter to having that moment where they discover me and it all went, and that does happen. But there's also 50 other people who did the exact same thing for which it doesn't happen. And so I think there's something humbling in recognizing the role that luck plays in success, not to say that what you do doesn't matter. It matters a lot, but it's not the only thing. You know, like we have this myth of the self-made man, that you just work hard, it's gonna happen. It's like you have dramatically increased the odds that something good will happen. You have not ensured them. Your own effort by themselves would not lead to that outcome. There's an element of luck still involved. You reduce the luck rather than being depending on the lottery ticket flying in your hands. You know, but reducing the luck and ensuring outcome are two different things.

Do you think there's some value there in being almost delusional with it, like being that guy who?

Imagine like self-belief to the tent power. There is as long as you make it, because then when you don't make it, then there's the moment where you shoot yourself because you build this all on success and then, when it doesn't work, suddenly your whole castle of cards crumbling down and you're miserable. So, yeah, to some degree it's a weapon, it's a good weapon. To some degree it's a delicate thing because, yeah, if you go too long believing, believing, believing, and finally you realize it has been 20 years, it hasn't happened, that whole thing may crash hard?

Oh yeah, absolutely. And for you, having been on Rogan nine times and it's something that's particularly interesting for me as a podcaster, and I think just everyone has this fascination with him because of how long one he's been doing it and how much success he's had with it Do you think there's anything that makes him particularly unique as a host that has separated him in some way?

I mean it's interesting because what he does is a formula that it's pretty much what they tell you not to do, in the sense that the typical success formalizes. You find your niche and you go down that niche because there's an already built in audience that care about that one topic and you run with it. He's doing the mosaic approach is doing the one day we talk about sports, one day we talk about philosophy, one day we talk about kind of this mix of a bunch of things which potentially can mean that you have no audience because there's no one set ready audience that listen to you. Or potentially you can have an everybody audience because everybody cares about some of those things. Typically that generalist approach doesn't work For him. He worked and suddenly then you're not at the level of the success within one specific field. You are and levels above because you drew from, like you. He drew his UFC audience, he drew his comedy audience, he drew his audience from fear factor. He drew the audience from. People are into psychedelics, so that's like where all the doors that could be closed because the psychedelic guy like I wanna hear about MMA screwed that and something else. So you really have nobody listening. He gets everybody listening, some of it is ability, some of it is luck.

It's interesting, and this whole conversation Lies upon discipline in a way, because we've been talking about, for a lot of this, the factors that are at play for love, I mean for success and discipline. Is that one that we haven't really touched on, we quickly mentioned it, but it's an interesting one because it's a hard balance between being ultra disciplined when you don't want to do things and still doing it anyway, versus just flowing a little more, just enjoying the day. How do you approach discipline and how do you go about thinking about it?

I think if you're just thinking about the outcome, you're screwed because the outcome is not ensured and you know, if you're thinking I'm gonna work hard so I get this outcome, yeah, good luck, because odds you, maybe you will, maybe you want, I think is unique to approach discipline the way Like there are in like karma yoga ideas, in like in the philosophy, there's this notion that, like some guys going through the training that we left them move all the rocks from one side of the river to another. And so you know your mind is thinking there's a purpose. I'm doing all this hard work is that we build something on the other side and then in the afternoon you move the rocks back to where you started, the idea being you're just doing it to do it, you're not doing something to achieve an outcome, to achieve a result. And so you approach discipline like, of course there's places you want to go there, stuff you want to achieve thanks to this discipline, by approaching it the way it's like Breathing. You know you should still keep breathing. That's a good idea, you should not. So you know you take it like you put in your discipline and effort and that's its own reward. In some way, that means that you're fighting against some forces of laziness, of stuff, that are inside you and by putting in the work and being disciplined, you are defeating them. That's making you a stronger human being. That's making you a more reliable human being the loved ones can count on. That is only a word. Regardless of whether that discipline leads you to have the success in another sense, you know it's like you cannot have any success without it. But just because you do it, if you're obsessed with the outcome, you're gonna burn yourself out and hate every moment of the process. So it's really there's a satisfaction in the process from I'm doing this thing. It's I just defeated that laziness, that inner voice of doubt, that stuff that feels awesome on its own, regardless of what you achieved thanks to it.

It's rewarding intrinsically in the pursuit, not because of the external goal that it's ultimately guiding you towards Yep. So I love to ask my guests this question and I tend to ask is the first question of the podcast and it's what one concept that has had the biggest tangible impact on your life? And my guess is your answer is balance. Would you say that's true.

Yeah, I think there's that. I think it's weird because, on one hand, it's like every other dumb thing, as a young drone somewhere but like so it's almost so pop as to lose meaning. But on the other hand, when you really stop to think about all the implications, all the way that it applies to day to day life, imagine in a symbol that captures the way life works, better than that in some very profound ways. That applies to literally everything you do. So yeah, that is, if we're talking about concepts, that's a very key one for me.

I think about in the sense of relationships.

It seems like the perfect analogy for that Absolutely, absolutely, because it's hard because you know it's easy to tell somebody do these five things, don't do these seven things. Okay, that's easy. Anybody can understand that this is good. This is bad. Again, easy in all circumstances do these, don't do that. It's much harder to tell somebody Okay, this is good to a point in some circumstances. This is also good to a point in some circumstances, but it can also be bad. Now, it requires you to think too hard. It requires you not to be able to fall back on a dogma to rely on. Now you have to dance on your feet and smell the situation and understand how to tweak it, and that requires a level of self confidence that's so much higher Because you have to trust your instinct, you have to trust your ability to navigate something outside of the map, whereas a good dogma just tell you do these, don't do that. It's so much more relaxing mentally because it's easy All you got to do is follow it. Very easy to achieve. That ability to navigate is not.

I'm smiling because it's something I've realized through my evolution of learning about nutrition and hearing all these dogmas and the way people think about things. You know that moderation is harder than that extremism and that extreme diet is a lot easier to do than that moderate diet where you have a bite of ice cream and a bite of pizza every so often. But we don't usually think about things in that light.

It's too much, too much hard work for most people, you know. I mean, even like the Taoists tend to be totally. They are kind of dicks about it. It's funny, but they are like they are. Seeing was like you know most philosophy. Most I want to attract people. The Taoist idea tends to be the initial approach is often what you want to learn about this stuff. No, please don't bother to go to Confucianism. They'll give you some simple rules to live by, making you avoid making too many screw ups. Good enough for you. You know this is dangerous ground. You'll get hurt. Playing with these big ideas it's too much. So they have this thing like yeah, it's not for everybody, not because potential is for absolutely everybody, but it's for absolutely everybody who has talent, sensitivity, awareness and develop a whole body that are not the most common.

So, for the person who isn't familiar with Taoism, what is the general idea of it? Is it that you know?

Yeah, yeah, I think that's. I mean there are a few, but that's a key aspect like it's extremely non-digmatic In the sense that he recognizes the context is King, that things are changing depending on the context. They are changing. The pen like. Changes is a process of life that's happening all the time and what work in one context does not work in the next. Nothing wrong with that idea was good in that context at that time. But you need to read the situation and adapt to right now and when you discover it and you're so excited, like I worked like a charm that was fantastic Great. Tomorrow is going to be different and you need to figure out how to tweak it again. You know it's like. So that's part of the. The message is extremely non-digmatic is you need to constantly work on tweaking that balance to adapt to ever changing context.

Everything's nuanced yeah, big time. So when? When are you thinking about releasing the novel? What's the what's the latest on that?

I mean, I would still eventually, if I keep going for too long and I don't find the venue through the traditional publishers course I've published. Okay, good.

So it's going to get out here. Yeah, at some point.

I would still like to try, because I still think that the problem with self-publishing is they are only going to reach your existing audience or not going to reach anybody else, whereas with a publisher there are possibilities that it can go other places. So we'll see. I'll keep trying a few things to see what happens and then, if nothing happens, and then other years gone by, I'll be like screw it, self-publishing.

Yeah, what's the hardest part about writing a book?

I mean you have 10,000, all the things that come up when you create anything, which is fear of failure, your own inner voice trying to make you not do the things that you care about the most because you're scared not to live up to your own hype. So, yeah, it forces you to really stare at yourself long and hard and and see all your weaknesses, all your insecurities, all that stuff.

Awesome. Yeah, it goes back to Musashi, right, when you know the way broadly, you see the way in all things, the same things that apply to writing the book are the same things. I'm sure when you started jujitsu that you felt as well, right?

Absolutely.

That's a great way to bring this conversation full circle. Is there anything that we haven't discussed today, that you've been thinking about lately, or you want to say?

No, I think it sounds good. This sounds like we've covered a lot of ground, so good stuff.

I'm always so impressed with you and it's always such a blast to get on a podcast with you and I'm always so, so impressed and I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much.

I really appreciate. This was a fun conversation Awesome.

Thank, you have a great one.