Playing Infinite Games: A Guide to Personal Brand Growth with Matt Mic

Hello.Hello.Welcome back to the show today.My guest is Matt.Mike.Matt is a online writer who has exploded the past nine months on Twitter.He dropped outta college to write online.He moved to Costa Rica and he writes about all things internet entrepreneurship.It was super cool to chat with a fellow22year old,and it was a ton of fun to record this episode.So I'll catch you guys inside.Peace.It's crazy.It's only been nine months for you on Twitter,the,uh,growth that you've seen and the success you've had.It's awesome.Thank you,man.Yeah,it's been,it's been a little bit quicker than expected.Like,I don't know,usually like,I feel like careers take like years and years to develop and that's what I was expecting it to be.And I still have like,obviously a long ways to go,but it's been pretty cool to,yeah.It's not like I've achieved like super incredible things,but I'm pretty like,looking back,I'm pretty happy,like with where I've gotten to in that time timeframe.Yeah,absolutely.You should be.So what do we need to know about,about you and your story to make sense of what you've been doing on Twitter and just in general?Yeah,so.I guess like the way I'm still trying to nail the elevator pitch for what I do.I like constantly switch it up with like whenever people ask,like in the simplest terms,I'm a writer.I write like my own.I just started writing on Twitter like last fall,last October12th was the day I started writing every single day and I just started writing.'cause I loved writing.I was always fairly good at it.In,you know,high school and college and I,I took some classes in college that were like,one specifically was called the autobiographical essay,where you,like,each week students would like,two students would write like a four to five page essay,just about some experience they went through and the rest of the class would read it that week and they'd spend the next,that hour and a half in class.Just workshopping it and like giving you feedback and I don't know,it was almost like,it was like an in-person Twitter and it was like,it was pretty cool.I really enjoyed that class.And so I just saw people like Dakota and Danko started like they were making money,like writing about their interests and their experiences on Twitter,and I was like,I could do that.You know,like why shouldn't I?Um,And so yeah,I just started posting on there.I didn't,I really didn't have like any plan for monetization when I started.And then as I started like writing threads consistently on Twitter,I kind of discovered the whole ghost writing space.And like Dakota Robertsons,you know,obviously the big guy,like the big Twitter ghost writer in this space.And so I started learning from him.I joined his cohort in January and I.Yeah,started signing my first ghost writing clients in February and then dropped out of college in March.Dropped outta college in March.That's awesome,man.Congratulations.How,how big of a role do you think joining the cohort cohort was?I think,I think it was a massive role.I did have,I did pay,um,for like one-on-one coaching,not from Dakota,from another big ghost writer.In October and he,he helped me out as well.Just like,like learning how to write specifically for Twitter.'cause it's so different from writing on,like academically,right?It's,it's honestly a process of unlearning things and'cause like everyone has like messed up attention span,so you gotta like space things out.So it's like not overwhelming with the big paragraphs of text and so,Um,yeah,it was huge.I learned a lot from Dakota and Legacy Builder.That was the other guy who helped mentor me and then,but half of it is like just putting that money down for the coaching because I was,I was in college.I wasn't,it's not like I was very wealthy,you know?So putting several thousand dollars.The Dakotas was even more for that.It was just mentally and psychologically.It was just a great forcing function for me to just say to myself like,I'm either gonna make this work or like die trying,because that was like a significant chunk of my net worth at the time.And so it kind of just was a great forcing function to fully commit to it and not like half as it.So I think that's honestly half the value of coaching.So more than anything else,it was just putting the money down and being like,oh shit.Like I have to commit to this.Yeah.It's like saying,'cause then you want to get your money's worth,right?Like if you're putting down a significant sum of money,you're not gonna just let it go to waste and not do the work and not learn the stuff in the course.It's just a great'cause.Like I'm,I've always been,I've had a history of kind of flaking on.Kind of ventures,like I've tried filmmaking in the past doing photography,um,crypto and like drop shipping and stuff.So,and all those lasted a few months.Crypto is a little bit longer,but that's not really a skill.Um,and so yeah,I just,I knew from my history that I have a tendency to flake after a few months.And so putting that money down for coaching was a great forcing function.And also just to like build your network.Like now you have someone holding you accountable and so you can't let them down.So yeah,I used to think coaching coaches on the internet were kind of scammy,but now that I've actually paid for it,and now that I'm actually coaching a couple people,I do realize that it's a lot more valuable than I thought.Yeah,it's funny,people on the outside have that per perception that like coaching is this real like scammy type of thing and like these internet courses are a bit of a waste of money.But I mean,dude,there's so much truth in the fact that like one just putting the money down and two.Learning from somebody that's ahead of you on the journey changes everything.Yeah.It's especially'cause it's,it's like the wild west out there,so it's not like you can,you can't really learn it any place else.You know?Like,yeah,there's courses,but I mean I've bought courses sometimes and it's not gone through them'cause there wasn't that accountability factor.So yeah,I wholeheartedly believe like if the internet economy,which is only growing and gonna become more and more,Prevalent in the future.The best way to learn is from the people building kind of at the edges of that100%,the people building at the edges of that.How long into that journey when you started to realize like,oh shit,like I can do this and I could do this faster than I initially imagined?Yeah,it's,I mean the,everyone always says it's kind of a meme on Twitter that.It's like six months of dedicated focus.It's such a meme on Twitter.Yeah.So I like,I don't know,I kind of thought that was,I didn't know how true that was,but funny enough,it actually was almost exactly to the date.Mm-hmm.I started October12th and then I dropped out March15th.So it,it was like three,six months and three days.So,Yeah,that's when I dropped outta college.I guess that's when you could say I,I don't know.Making it is a completely subjective term,but that was I guess,dropping out.I dropped out because I had the income to support myself full time and you know,I think that's the goal for,that was my initial goal.And,but yeah,I signed my first clients in February,started making a couple thousand dollars a month then.Which obviously like still isn't enough to support yourself.But then March I signed a couple more and then it's basically,it doesn't become real.'cause it's all like,it's all just on the internet.You don't know,you don't even know a lot of these people in real life.You've never spoken to'em.They're all just profile pictures on this bird app and,but once that stripe invoice hits your bank account and it's like,Well,I can actually,you know,use that to,to live.That's kind of like tricky realization.Was it a hard process to drop out?Like was that something that you battled with or like,did your parents get it?Like was,what was the,um,internal conversation there?Yeah,it was,it was a tough process,man,because my parents are pretty big on education and when I did it,I.You know,I kind of like teased the idea so that it's not like it was totally unexpected.Um,but I,when it happened,I wrote like a17page letter to my parents.Just explain to my philosophy with it,why I am doing it,et cetera,et cetera.And I,I,I kind of took the frame of,I don't expect you guys to understand.Because to be honest,if I was in their position,I would probably be feeling the same exact way.And yeah.So I dropped out for two months.The relationship with my parents was pretty rocky.And then one day my mom called me as if nothing had happened.And I was like,what?And now,now we're,yeah.Now it's like it didn't even happen and we're,we're on good terms again.Did that weigh on you?Honestly,not too much.I partially because I,I dropped out when I was studying abroad in Buenos Airs and yeah,I like,it's not like I was like seeing them on a day-to-day,you know,before that I think I would call them like once a week or once every two weeks.So,and I was so focused on business stuff,it wasn't.I mean,in the back of my mind it was like,damn,that sucks that my parents like are not happy with me right now.But,you know,on a practical level,it,it wasn't a huge deal.And I knew they would,I know them well.Like I know,I knew they would come around'cause they,they would not wanna sacrifice their relationship with their kid,you know,for that.At least my parents.I know some parents would.So no,that's not the same for everybody.So that's17page letter.Like what,what was in it?What was the philosophy there?Like what was your pitch to them?Yeah,I mean there is a lot of stuff in there.I think the major points were,it was basically.Like,and it's so hard to understand for someone who's outside the Twitter sphere and just online business sphere because it's so,it's so new and it's kind of that generational divide.But I,I've been wanting to make money online and like live abroad,kind of travel around in my twenties since I was16or17.Like,I have a,a note on my phone where I wrote that as a goal.And all those other ventures I talked about earlier,like filmmaking,photography,that was all in an attempt to develop that online income.So it wasn't just,it wasn't necessarily,you know,a decision I made just within six months.It was something that I've been wanting to do for five years plus.And it's like the windy effect,right?Like the longer something persists.The longer it is likely to persist into the future.And so I knew that this is what I wanted to do,this whole internet stuff.And you don't need a degree.Like the reality is you don't need a degree for it.And I thought the classes I was taking in college,I was just,sometimes I would just kind of laugh to myself in class.I was like,are we really learning this?Like this is not even hard or useful.Um,I got like way too political for my liking.So I feel that,dude,definitely feel that.But it brings up an interesting conversation,right,like this generational difference.And like for us being like in this Twitter world and seeing it,you understand that like this modern road to financial freedom that you can take through the internet is totally different from what our parents think is even possible.It's the wild west and it's only,yeah.Yeah,I totally agree.I don't,it's hard to like explain.It's like,'cause technology advances at a kind of an exponential rate and so I feel like the generational divide is only gonna get wider.Like our,our parents'relationship with their parents,the divide wasn't as big as it is between us and our parents.Just'cause technology has evolved.Like at an accelerating rate.And I think that will probably be come even more true.Like our,I think we'll have potentially an even bigger generational divide with our kids.It's kind terrifying.Yeah.It's a scary thought just because it,it's an interesting thought.One is just like this exponential growth in technology is causing that divide to be even bigger and bigger.And like I saw this tweet the other day.I don't know if you saw this,I think it went pretty viral of a kid at a barbershop and he was getting his hair cut and his mom was holding the phone and scrolling TikTok so that he would be able to like focus and like stay there and not cry in the seat.And like to us that's just like the crst,like craziest thing ever.But it makes me think about that generational divide.Yeah,man,I was,Uh,like a restaurant over the4th of July and like with my family and some of our friends and yeah,I saw multiple tables where the kids just had iPads and they were like locked in with their headphones.And I was like,this is messed up.It is super messed up,dude.100%.Yeah.So for that,like,let's call it like the college student right now,kind of going back to where you were at the start of this journey for that person who's.On the outside looking in,like they,they,uh,consume the Twitter content,but they don't create on there.And they're like,they understand that this road to financial freedom is like,is possible one and is something that's something they think that they kind of can do.But they don't know their tactical stuff.They don't know kind of the how to.They don't know where to start.They don't know what their niche is or any,anything along those lines.What do you wish you knew when you were at that stage?It's so.It.Like I said,it's so like not tangible,you know,like other jobs,you're in person in real life,you're interacting with customers.Like I work at retail and it's,it's so much more real.Like you're,your job is to go in,clock in at a certain time.You're at a physical location interacting with physical people.So that's like a much more for like the human mind that's so much easier to.Understand than the internet.'cause it's so less real in a way.I don't Yeah.Like you can't,like,yeah.It's just like on your laptop and you're,we're all just kind of like trying to tap our keyboards in the right way,you know,to make money and like,so I,I think what I wish I knew is that you,you're only gonna understand how the game is played by playing it.And that's a mistake I made because I first found out about this side of Twitter.I think it was last February or last March.And I was one of those endless procrastinators where I was listening to so many podcasts,taking courses,taking notes,um,but never,never writing.And so I guess like I didn't start till October,so that's,You know,seven or eight months where I just was not taking action at all.And it's impossible to learn how it's,the game is actually played when you're just studying it from afar.Like everyone uses a basketball analogy.Like,you're not gonna learn how to shoot a basketball or play defense if you're reading books about it.Right.You need to actually get in the arena.And so,yeah,I wish I would've started pretty much immediately.Um,so yeah,when I say I did it in six months,I,that might be a little bit deceiving.Like in reality there was eight months of kind of studying the game from afar where I had,you know,some background knowledge of how the game was played when I started.So I don't wanna,like say the six months thing is like,if you don't get it in six months,like you're completely doing fine.Like,don't beat yourself up about it.Um,But yeah,it's,it makes it more real when you,when you're actually writing and you're,I would say the most important thing is that the mo,the biggest mistake I made was trying,I went in with a mindset of I'm gonna do my writing and,you know,build a following.Like,I'll have a lot of people who love my work,and that was the goal.Like,I was just gonna build a following off my writing.But the re the reality is,and the biggest mindset shift that I've made is that it's really a game,like audience building is really just a game of relationship building.And so it became more real for me when I started DM-ing people jumping on calls with people and'cause then it's like they're not just these little profile pictures on a,on the timeline,they're.Kind of,you kind of view them as friends that you've spoken to,you know them on a deeper level.And that itself is kind of a form of accountability because then I started joining group chats with them.And you know,then it's,if I were to stop writing,like we're all on the same mission.So if I were to stop writing,they would be like,you know,what's up Matt?Like,why aren't you?Why did you kind of give up?So it's almost like pure pressuring yourself in a good way.And the more relationships you can build,Through the dms and just jumping on calls now,like I'm living with this kid I met on Twitter in Costa Rica and it's like that all happened within six months.Like we met each other in like November,December.Um,so yeah,it's.Build relationships,not,don't just build a following.I love those two things.Understanding that the only way you learn about the game is by truly playing the game and actually like film,like building those relationships.Two so important things.And um,like you said though,like it's crazy to think like it's possible and it's almost,it's so not tangible.That it's hard to envision it actually happening.Did you see it like,uh,it's an interesting conversation,right?Because people have like this perception that like,you need to believe it to achieve it.And I've been wondering if that's true.'cause like,it is,especially in this,it's so like airy fairy and like,doesn't really,you can't,you,you really can't wrap your,uh,brain around it.Did you see it coming?You know,I kind of,yeah,I guess I,I,it wasn't necessarily a,a full belief at first.I would say once I,that October12th day,I remember it vividly.'cause I put down kind of an uncomfortable amount of money for coaching and let's go with that.I was so,I was like,you know,I have to make this work.But before that,it was kind of,yeah,it's so,you know,I.Kind of,it's similar to like my experience that I had in crypto.Like,like many people,I was super obsessed with it when the market was hot and then like I made a lot of money and then,but it didn't feel real like the,it was just like these,like literally,like these like magic internet tokens didn't feel like actual money that I could use.And it was because of that.Feeling like not understanding that that's actually like kind of life changing money that I was like,oh,it's gonna keep going higher and higher.And then I kind of round tripped back to where I started.And so there is an element,it's such,I think,don't,people probably don't talk about it enough.There's such an element of like,it's not,it's not tangible.Like the human mind isn't meant to comprehend this like laptop and like this whole internet economy.So it takes some adjusting,it takes some time in the game to like realize this is a legit career and honestly one of,if not the best career you can build based on where the future's heading.Yeah,it's hard to take serious,like,When you have that perspective,for the exact reason you said like with the crypto stuff as well,like,like if you had that money in front of you,you'd be so much less risky with it,but because it's on the internet for some reason,it's like,it just,it feels different.Yeah.If you would've given me that money in a briefcase in cash,like a hundred dollars bills,I would've like,Put it under my bed bank,like been super protective of it.Instead I was like investing it in these like shitty alt coins.Like,and yeah.Yeah,and it's a,it's definitely a barrier to overcome,uh,I think building relationships with people who have done it with their jobs,et cetera,and like started doing it full time.That does make it more real.'cause you're like,oh,I know this guy who's,who's literally just doing it full time,making a living.And over time,like you get adjusted to it.I mean,and so it still doesn't feel real because,I don't know,I'm still just like,I don't have like a set clock out hour,you know,when I'm scrolling Twitter,is that considered,you know,I guess kind of,I dunno,like the line is,the line is like so blurry,so.It's,it's a real phenomenon.Yeah.It's a fun game though.And it's an interesting point that you made talking about like,when you make the connections with the people who are actually doing it,it becomes much more real.Like,I never even thought about like Twitter and all this type of,uh,social media growth until like,just through doing the podcast and ending up talking to people who are killing it on Twitter,and they're like,oh dude,like,you should,you should give it a try.Like,and just hearing their perspective on things and understanding that like,They're not that different from you,like they are human too.They're not like that much smarter than you.Like understanding that these people aren't like super human because like we have a tendency to like put these quote unquote influencers on like a pedestal.So taking that away,it changes things for sure.Makes things more real.Yeah,and it's,it's a weird phenomenon.Like I,I,I was,when I first started,I put these.If you just look at the follower accounts and you just,the inherent initial reaction that you have is to put them on a pedestal.'cause they're like,oh,this many people follow'em.That must mean that's proportional to like how high value they are.And so I like put all these people on a pedestal.And then as I started to grow,I was like,okay,like it's really not that special.And now I have people who.You know,are kind of just getting introduced to the game now,and I've jumped on calls with some of'em and it's,it's kind of weird.Like I am,I'm just a22year old kid.Like,I don't view myself as like some kind of wizard who just like special or anything like,and they've kind of like treated me as if I was some kind of micro celebrity.And it's,it's a weird thing,dude.It's so fucking weird.Yeah.It's so nasty to me.I never thought I would play this social media game,but yeah,it's funny,right?Me either.But living in Costa Rica now,have you found it like,so I'm in Spain at the moment and between just like the lifestyle and the lack of wifi and the poor quality of wifi,at times I find it hard to actually like sit down and do like that deep work that's required.Have you been struggling with that at all?Dude.Yes.So I,I just moved to Costa Rica four days ago on Wednesday and yeah,like lightning storm and it like caused a power line to fly and we were without internet water power,like nothing for about16hours,like all the shops were closed.I couldn't do any work and it was like,I was a little bit nervous'cause I was like,if this is a consistent thing,like maybe I should take a different spot.But from what I heard,it's not,it like rarely happens.So it's not a huge deal,like in terms of client work and stuff.But it's definitely a real thing where I,most people here are kind of on vacation mode.It's,I mean,I've only been here for four days,but,I've,you know,gone.We have a hostel that's like right down the road where they have events and everyone's like,oh,let's go out drinking,like vacation mode.And I'm,I already know it's going to a struggle to lock in and not let myself get up in that because Yeah,it's,it's hard to,when.Like you're on the beach and it,there's like a lot of distractions like that.But at the same time I think I'll be able to flip it and make it more play,use it to my advantage where like the beach is right there.That's like a good reset,you know,go surfing.Kind of like to get my mind off of the whole Twitter game.'cause that's something I've struggled with personally is balancing consumption and creation.'cause like I said,the line is so blurry,so sometimes I'll just be scrolling Twitter for way too long and yeah,being in a more natural environment that's quieter will,I'm betting that that will be beneficial for my focus.I agree.And it's an interesting comment that I don't think people realize or talk about enough is that like when you are that creator,That dopamine that you get from the app is in so much stronger than what you're just consuming.Like when you're writing stuff and it's like kind of going viral,or you just,every time you open up Twitter,you have a million notifications like that game and the dopamine you get from it.I don't think the addiction side of creators gets talked about enough.Yeah,a hundred percent.I've had a co,like I just posted.I was not expecting this to pop off at all,but I,when I first moved here on one side I just tweeted like,oh,I moved here.Like,this is what I've,you know,dreamed of for so long,since high school.And it,like,I opened my phone that next morning and there was,it was like blowing up and it's,it,it,I would say some scientists should do a study on it and,you know,compare the effects of social media virality to like,Some other drugs.I'm sure it would.I'm honestly like Sure.It would be fairly similar in terms of how100%like shaking.It is.It is so fucking addictive.It's so funny.Yeah.Do you,I,I mean it's almost like a good thing though,Kanda,right?Like.Wait,since it is like so addicting,it's like you want to create more and do more high quality stuff so you can keep getting that hit.Probably an unhealthy relationship with it,but whatever.No,like I,that's honestly what I would credit to my,I would say that was a decently influential factor in why I was able to kind of sus succeed.On Twitter is,I just became addicted to writing threads.You know,first I was addicted to scrolling Twitter,and then I started,and then I became addicted to the notifications I would get from writing on Twitter.And so that's why like for the first three months I was writing five to six threads a week because I was like a dopamine junkie pretty much.So I think you can,I can,you can use it to your advantage for sure.And Yeah.Yeah,it's a good strategy.Honestly,it is a good strategy.I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about it that way,but I'm sure almost all the creators,like consciously or subconsciously like feel that way a hundred percent.It's like impossible not to,it's,it's so hard not to.What do you think your niche is?I don't know,and I almost don't wanna define myself as a niche.As a niche.I.It's kind of like,that seems to be one of the biggest questions people have is,you know,should you niche down or should you just be yourself and like you be the niche.I just don't even know how to pronounce that word,man.Is it niche or niche?I,I think it's niche.I,I don't know.Could be totally wrong with that.So I think there's,you can do it.I think you can find success in both ways.You know,I would,from what I've learned and,and from what I've seen,niching down or niching down can be,you can find success with that probably faster than if you were,if you were to take a broader approach.Um,just because you're,it just depends on your goals.Like if you're trying to monetize really quickly,I would say,Niching down is probably the way to go because you have a target audience,you know,kind of what service you wanna deliver to,you know,potential clients,and it's a lot more defined that way.But I would,but the con with that is,I think it's,it's hard to sustain that for a long period of time,because when you're niched down for so long,it's kind of the same repetitive content over and over and over again.And after a while it's,it's kind of,I don't know.I,I've find I've seen people kind of burn out from that.And I think if you're in the game forever,which that's what your plan is,and a personal brand inherently will follow you for life.I think kind of taking the broader approach where you just write about whatever is top of mind for you that week,I think that's,The way to sustain yourself.And that's like the hardest,the hardest barrier with this game is actually starting and getting into a consistent flow with it.And I think that's hard to do when you're constantly boxing yourself in.Um,like when I first started writing,I wrote about a wide variety of stuff that isn't even remotely related.And so I would say I don't have a niche.A niche,you know,it's broadly.I broadly kind of talk about writing and internet entrepreneurship,but it's such a holistic endeavor in the sense that to make it work,build a brand around yourself,it requires you to develop yourself.And personal development is like a,it's like fitness.It's relationship.It's health,and.That's like a holistic thing.So I kind of talk about a wide variety of stuff now.Yeah.So the reason why I asked the question originally is because,like you said before,like when you all,when you do have a niche,you grow quicker.But I never really,like when I consumed your content,I never really pegged you to a niche.So it was,it's an interesting dichotomy,grew so quickly.But yet you defied the laws of niching goes quicker.Mm-hmm.Yeah.Yeah,I think,I think you definitely can grow fast with the broader appeal.And in a way it's like,I think in terms of monetization specifically,it's faster if you niche down.Like I probably could have made money sooner if I would've niched down,but I,it just didn't feel.Real.I don't know.Some people,yeah,some people preach.Yeah.It didn't feel real to me.Like some people preach cold dms and outreach to people.I never,I've never sent a cold DMM in my life,to be honest,and so I probably could have signed clients sooner than I did,but I,I kind of took the approach where I'm not in like a huge rush to make money from it.I kind of,when I started,I kind of gave myself that deadline of,okay.I wanna make this a full-time thing,at least by the time I graduate,so I don't have to get a real job,quote unquote.You did it.And that kind of gave me the freedom and flexibility to write about what I.I'll take it too seriously,I guess.Yeah.I mean,I think it's like since you're playing an infinite game,it doesn't matter,like on the grand scheme of things,it's six months versus nine months.Really makes no difference.So I think broadening your a time horizon and understanding that,like how long do you wanna do this for?Makes you more likely to do the thing that is for you long term,what's going to be,make the most sense and what you're actually like passionate about.Yeah,I love that concept of infinite games.I just actually bought,I'm gonna rebrand my newsletter to that.Let's go.That's awesome.Yeah.Yeah,I mean it's,it's such an interesting concept and I don't think people broaden their horizons and especially with content creation,like we have such like a cheap dopamine like mind nowadays,and it's hard when somebody like I.It's first getting started and they're getting one like per tweet.It's,it's hard to keep going through that and to understand that,like,you gotta play the game for a long time.If you wanna get,be successful with it.It's brutal.Yeah.The beginning.And it's so hard to compare yourself to people who have tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of followers when you first start,but I think people don't realize that the distance between.You and them isn't as wide as you would think,just because the time it takes to get,for example,at least on Twitter,the time it takes to get from zero to a thousand followers takes the longest.And then I think I went from like a thousand to5,000faster than I did from zero to one K.And then it,it's like exponential.And so it's like,it's a snowball effect.Like it takes a lot to get it going.But once it starts rolling down that hill,then it,then it really picks up steam and it starts to become more effortless.And the growth,growth is not linear.I think that's what a lot of people don't get,and it makes sense because the human mind isn't meant to understand like exponential growth.That's a common theme throughout our conversation today.Like the human mind just doesn't get it.Yeah,yeah.We're not built for this,so we're not built for this.That's gonna be the title of this episode.So when,so I kind have a selfish question here,right?So you said you went from one K to five K super fast.And so most of my growth on Twitter has been through doing the Twitter spaces.I haven't really,um,sat down too much and been like,okay,I'm gonna take this writing thing seriously and try to use it to grow the brand.But now I,I think I want to take that more serious.I'm at like just under2000followers now,so what do you think I should be doing to write well,to get from that two k to that five K or10K?What are the things that takes you to that next level?Well,what is your,what is your writing schedule now?Like do you have a content cadence that you're putting out or are you just kind of like pre balling it with,with the spaces I do.Um,right now it's been seven days a week for the past month,but it's gonna go down to like four or five days a week for,um,the indefinite time after that.Yeah.I'll just share it with me and some of my friends.It's kind of funny.There's.There's like classes of people on Twitter where you,you start at the same time as other people and you kind of connect with them'cause you're around the same size.And like all of my,uh,they've become friends now.We've all grown just from dedicated growth pushes.So yeah,the,what I,what worked for me and what worked for them is,like I said,for those first three months,I.Addicted myself to notifications from Twitter and it's,I don't wanna,might sound like a cop out answer,but it,it really is just volume.And so,like,I wrote five threads a week for three months.So I wrote a thread every single day in January this year,and that's when they grew by like six,7,000followers.And the,the algorithm on Twitter specifically works.It's so,it's so momentum based.So once you build that momentum through volume easier and easier,um,and you,like your content just gets boosted more in the algo.Uh,yeah.The analogy I,for the example,talks about this one time when he,he was,I think for like one of his gyms.Told him to,like,said that was a good way to get leads.Mm-hmm.And so he put out like300flyers around town and he,he came back and like,after the300flyers,like after a few weeks,nobody had had came in and he told his mentor that his mentor kind of laughed in his face and he was like,dude,we don't,we don't even like make a judgment until we put out at least5,000flyers.So,It's a lot of the time,like you're doing the right stuff,you're just not doing enough of it.Mm.The application to Twitter is,is just threads.I think long form tweets are also kind of a new meta or both threat,like long form tweets are definitely getting more traction in the algorithm,I think.I don't think it's like one or the other,like threads are dead,et cetera.But yeah,some combination between long form tweets.And threads at a high volume is probably the answer.Mm.And the way I would split that up is with threads,I would use the thread format.If you're writing content that is more,has like more than one point to it.Right.'cause it just,it fits that format better where you have like,each tweet is its own point within that overarching theme.Whereas a long form tweet is better if you're just going deep on one idea because it's just,you know,you can expand,you're not limited and it's not awkward where you have to split it up by tweets.So that's how I would split it up and yeah,just addict yourself to the algorithm,the dopamine.The token me when it comes to quality versus quantity.It's funny'cause I mean,I will write a lot of tweets,but I only put out like10%of them,15%of them.And it's not that the other ones are bad,it's just like it's pr.It's definitely like an ego thing.I'm just like,I want my tweets to be like as good as possible.How do you think about like balancing like quality versus quantity and understanding like when a tweet's kind of just shit versus when you just are like overthinking it?Yeah,I think this isn't my line,so don't quote me on it,but I think qua quantity is the only path to quality,and I think especially in the beginning,it's best to publish maybe up that percentage from15to,I don't know,like60,70%.Just because,because this is the thing is in your head you might think,oh,this is a shitty tweet,like I'm not gonna post it.But I've had tweets that I thought were shitty,that I,tweets that I like actually was when I first saw it went out on the timeline,I was like,oh shit,I actually was to delete that one.But they,but they popped off.And so you actually don't really know,like you're,honestly,'cause you're so involved with it and you're the writer of the content,you,you don't have like an objective view.On if it's good or not.And so sometimes,like I,I'm horrible at predicting which one of my tweets or threads will go viral just because like it's so,you just never know.And so some content I thought was not my best that I published has popped off and some content that I thought was amazing,just didn't get any traction.Uh,you kind of.The only way,you know and get better at identifying that pattern is just by publishing it and putting it out in public.Such a great lesson and yeah,we're,we're too close to it at times to objectively view it.But one thing you said a little earlier that I wanted to return back to was Twitter friends,and I did not realize one,that that was like even a thing for when I first got started.Like you don't realize that these relationships you build on Twitter are like as genuine as they actually turn out to be.Like you make real friends on this platform and people that you're probably more aligned with than anybody you ever meet in real life.And it's one of the unexpected benefits of growing a personal brand.Yes.It's,and I've like,I used to be the context,I used to be such a hater of all things social media.Like I,like I deleted my Instagram and I was.I just thought it was so superficial.I feel you.And yeah,and so,and I was like against dating apps and kind of like meeting people online.I was like,oh,it's way more authentic if you meet people in real life.And so like I was very apprehensive when I started,you know,building these relations like I was before I hopped on a call with the first guy I did last July.I've like met up with some people in life and it's so true that the friends you make on Twitter,and I think it's more the case with Twitter than other social media platforms because it's,it's an idea based platform where you're your just literally like your thoughts and your consciousness and so the people who.I end up following you and liking your content.They have the same ideas and the same values that you're inherently gonna make way better friends online on Twitter than,than you would've by chance in real life.Like the odds of me meeting people that were so like-minded in real life is probably close to zero,and Twitter is just such a fantastic way to build connections and people who.You kind of share your same line of thinking and you know,sometimes it like plays to a fault'cause you get so locked in this echo chamber that it's like I,when you talk to people in real life,it's like,damn,this is,they don't really understand.You're like the guy in the corner in that meme.Yeah.Um,so yeah,I think what it is,is like,When inherently,by growing such a personal brand on Twitter and like being the person you are,like being a writer or whatever,by definition you're uncommon.And then as a result,uncommon people are uncommon to find.And so like Twitter is like a curated place of like-minded people and it changes the game for you.Like you're able to build these very authentic and genuine relationships with people you never would've otherwise.I think it's,it's the ultimate.Yeah,it's obviously not advertised like that,but it's,it's the ultimate way to connect with people and like,I've met some people in real life now,and I kind of knew even before I met them that we would already be friends.Yeah.Just because I see their ideas and what they write about,and it's such a,a deeper platform versus Instagram or TikTok where it's just.Those are like entertainment platforms more so than Twitter,which is more an idea,kind of like,has more depth to it basically.And so as a result,it's easier to make closer friends on this platform than other ones.Isn't that so weird,right.That you kind of already know that you're gonna be like pretty good friends with somebody?Yeah.And it,and it's always like kind of true.Like,it,it just like works out that way.Yeah.I,I haven't met a single person I met through Twitter that I didn't,I.Like,yeah,it's funny.Matt,is there anything we haven't talked about today that you wanna cover?Anything you think is pretty fundamental to what you talk about or kind of just Twitter growth or who you are?Um,I think,yeah,I think you had a great line of questioning.I think we covered all the major bases,I would say Yeah,like that not defining yourself in that niche is.It is pretty fundamental.And then,I don't know,I think,I think one thing that I've learned more recently that's kind of been top of mind for me is there's a distinction between,and I've only learned this recently'cause I was on the phone with one of my friends and he was kind of just made it as an offhand comment,but it really stuck with me is this idea that.Twitter,like on Twitter,everyone kind of like classifies themself as a writer.Um,just because that's like how you communicate on the platform primarily.But I think there's a distinction between,and it's kind of like one that is better if you be aware of,between people who are like writing kind of essays and long form blog pieces,just purely about their ideas.Um,versus people who are more like internet marketers and they're just like,everything is just like copywriting trying to get you to buy something at the bottom.And you can,you can,and probably should do both,but I think that's something that I'm,I'm trying to lean into more is people like Paul Graham or like David Perel for example.Those are people I really look up to where they're,they just have standalone essays that are just.They're pure ideas that they like putting out into the world,and that's what they're known for.And I think David Perel does it the best where he has his,he has his separate essays and then he also has a writing school.And so I think that's really cool how he is like able to monetize it like that while still just putting out pure ideas where it's not,I don't wanna say contaminated,but it's kind of,if you were to like at the bottom be like,oh,then buy my course,you know?Yeah.Then it's,it's different.It changes things.Yeah.And so,I don't know,I kind of,the whole idea of being more of a writer's writer is something that I has been top of mind for me and yeah,something I wanna,I wanna go more into.I think it's such a great point,and like I'm sure that with David Perel,like he has the writing school and then he has his own personal writings and blog posts,and I'm sure that all.Or most of the people who read the blog posts are aware of the writing school,and by definition,and they are,they want to join the writing school because of David Perel and because of his writings and he doesn't have to like advertise it.And it,it's the beauty of just creating,uh,consistently and creating that quality and quantity to get to a point where you don't have to be that like click beatty,scammy guy.You can just kind of be yourself.Yeah,just creating freely.And I think I make that point because I kind of fell into that trap where,and I've seen it with some other people who are kind of starting off now,where I got into the game because I,I just really enjoyed riding and I wasn't like writing about like,I don't know how to grow or like,hear about my product after.It was,I got into it just because I love writing itself,and so I see people who also come into the game for that love of writing.But then I got into the trap of,of following some other people and like taking their advice when in reality they were just more copywriters.Like they,they're great at like helping you make money and stuff,which is obviously very important as well.But I kind of lost that.Inherent like intrinsic motivation for writing itself and kind of got swept up in the whole marketing side too much.And so I think it's,yeah,basically like choose your,like Mount Rushmore or your mentors,like why it,like be conscious of what they're doing so you don't get like sw up in the wrong direction.I think that's the perfect place for us to end here.Matt,this is awesome,brother.I really appreciate you taking time.Thank you,man.Yeah,this is awesome.