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Stefanos Sifandos is a behavioral scientist, trained educator, and relationships expert.
He is helping people free themselves from destructive behaviors and move closer to their highest potential. Stefanos has worked with thousands of men and women from all over the world; Special Forces soldiers, Olympic gold medalists, high-performing CEOs and entrepreneurs, elite fighters, and everyday people.
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What is up, guys? Welcome back to the Alchemist Library Podcast. Today on the show we have Stefanos Sifanos. He is a behavioral scientist, educator and relationships expert. He is helping people free themselves from destructive behaviors and move closer towards their highest potential. Stefanos has worked with thousands of men and women across the world, from soldiers to Olympic gold medalists, to CEOs, entrepreneurs, athletes, fighters and everyday people. This episode was a treat. It was filmed in person in Austin, texas, and if you'd like to watch the video of this, it's up on YouTube. I'll leave it at that. Catch you guys inside Peace. Are you doing this work?
Speaker 2:to facilitate growth or to become famous? Which is more important Getting or letting go?
Speaker 1:Stuff, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2:I'm pumped up for this one.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me, man. So in this world of relationships, intersexual dynamics, is there one concept, one idea that you really want to stress to people? Is there one overarching idea that you really hope people understand at a fundamental level?
Speaker 2:Well, I think there are many. When it comes to intimate relating and when it comes to relationships, one of the best things that we can do for ourselves and our partners and not just our partners, but those that are close to us, right, those that we actually care about, whether it's a sibling, a parent, a colleague, a dear friend is the ability and the willingness, the willingness to do our own inner work, in other words, to be more self-aware, to explore notions of how can we be showing up better in our relationships, for ourselves and for others and for the entity of relationship itself. How can we do things differently, how can we work on our patterns that don't really serve us, that may be a abrasive or impatient, or push people away, or that carry fear fear of intimacy, fear of rejection and therefore have us behaving in certain ways. I think that willingness to do our inner work is paramount in any relationship, but all parties have to come to the party.
Speaker 1:It's an interesting idea. It's like that concept of saving the world by saving yourself. It's something that you see in your message. It's the only way or how you treat yourself and how you show up with yourself is how you're going to show up in a relationship.
Speaker 2:I mean ultimately, yeah, man. I mean, I find that in my own personal life, in my own relationship man. If my self-talk is abrasive and judgmental, if I am shaming myself, I will find that I carry a greater propensity to shame others, to be judgmental of others, to be quite hypercritical of others and to have less patience with others because I don't have that patience with myself.
Speaker 1:It's one of those things, though, that's so much easier said than done right. How do you get to that point where you are? I want to say more just loving with yourself.
Speaker 2:The pain of change needs to be less than the pain of remaining the same. Fundamentally, that's what it comes down to. So if we see on the horizon somewhere that there is a change or transformation that we seek for ourselves and we can somewhat see that being us or us embodying that at some level, usually what happens is the ego says nope, we're not changing, that's unfamiliar territory. Better, the devil, you know. Essentially right, and we will fight and do everything we can to remain in familiarity, because familiarity feels safe. So we learn, ultimately to cultivate a greater sense of self and a greater resilience and courage by challenging ourselves, by doing things that are difficult and overcoming those things and having many real life examples of doing tough stuff, getting through it and relaying it to this moment and saying, well, if I did that, then maybe I can do this now, maybe there is an opportunity for real change and I'm at the precipice of it and all I need to do is take the first step. What does that look like?
Speaker 1:Have you ever heard of this region beta paradox? No, you heard of this. Maybe Tell me more. So I think it's essentially if you were to go a mile or less, you would walk. If you were to go two miles, you would drive, and so hypothetically you would go two miles faster than you would go one mile. And it's almost in relation to what you were just saying If your situation is comfortably numb or not awful, you're going to stay the same, because you don't have that same hunger level that if the situation was miserable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have heard of that before and I forgot what it was called. But yes, that.
Speaker 1:It's an interesting conversation. How do you raise the hunger level without making yourself more miserable, in a way?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think that's part of the paradox, right? I think the greater misery or suffering or pain, and parts of that is optional, but I don't think we can necessarily forego that completely. That's part of the issue. I think, that's such an important note. We're attempting to bypass pain completely or the challenge of that, the misery or the suffering completely. I don't think we can and I think when we move into some acceptance around, this is going to be uncomfortable. I don't know what that level of discomfort is. However, I'm willing to take a chance and I'm willing to sit with it and I'm willing to work with it when it comes up, I'm willing to seek support when I need it. I'm willing to do that more difficult work. What often happens, again paradoxically, is that pain, that intensity. It lessens and we deepen our relationship to the process and what we start to find and what we start to come into greater acceptance of, is that pain is part of the process. It's not the entire process, but it's part of the process. So can we embrace that, just like we embrace the joyous moments or the pleasant moments or the desirable moments that come to us in life through change and transformation, but also just by being in life?
Speaker 1:I love that note because it's almost the avoidance of pain that causes those issues to begin with.
Speaker 2:I think that's a fair point to make.
Speaker 1:When we were setting up in here the audio engineer, he asked me who I was recording with and I told him you, and he was familiar with your work. And I said do you have any questions that you would want to ask him, and he was like he's probably going to take the conversation some interesting directions. But I'd be curious, since he's a very unique thinker and very different in some ways, what he thinks people in the self-help industry that he's in kind of get wrong with things, since he's an unconventional thinker.
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, I'm very humbled by that commentary. I feel very, very grateful to receive that, so thank you. I think I sort of did a post on this sort of did a post on this a couple of days ago as a small piece that I wrote on this. I think what a lot of the self-help industry gets wrong or could do better and I started this way as well, so I can really empathize is there's too much fakeness. There's this belief that if you're in the self-help industry and you're a leader in the industry, that you need to have it all together, you have to be perfect, and that's dangerous, man. It's just like false advertising. It's just like when we see these models or these people that look a particular way and we think that's the standard of being human, when that's not necessarily the case. And beauty and aesthetics is a level of subjectivity to that anyway, right, but put that aside for a moment. But these false icons that we adore and we put in a pedestal. Self-help industry does that a little bit and it's got to be made clear. We're human, we're all human and we all have human experiences and if we're living in this world, we're collecting content. In other words, we're collecting experiences that are shaping us but that are also activating us in different ways. For example, I've done a lot of deep, attentive work to my relationship with my parents when my daughter came into my life and I became a parent. In that way, some of that old stuff that I'd worked through that I thought I had completed came up again, came to my awareness again. I saw behaviors come out of me, come through me, that I hadn't really been like that for many years, and so time to go down the rabbit hole again or not, but for me it was time to revisit that, and so, from that part, if you're a practitioner or a leader in the self-help industry, I think it's really important to be real with who you are and where you're at. It doesn't mean you have to wear your heart on your sleeve. It doesn't mean you have to share every ill story or challenge or difficulty that you're facing. But don't pretend that you have it all together because you don't. I definitely don't. I think the other part with the self-help industry is that we think it's a magic bullet, and it's not. It's a support mechanism and ultimately no one can do the work for you. People can only support you on certain parts of your journey. That's at least my experience and my belief around this, and there are many aspects of one's journey that must be traversed in solitude, not alone, in loneliness or isolation, but in solitude, and there's value to that and there's value in seeking help and support. So I would say those two big points fake gurus and self-help industry is in a magic bullet.
Speaker 1:I wanted to dive into both of those, but I think we should start with the first point that you made about kind of coming across as this perfect person, and it's this overall epidemic with social media that we're seeing on a more global scale is especially with younger people. They idolize these people and they put them on a pedestal in a way that, one, I don't think is healthy for their own self-esteem and two, I think is causing a lot of damage for them and how what they think they should show up as in this world. It's a little terrifying when you think about it and the direction we're heading in, and it's interesting. I'd be curious in your perspective from a relationship standpoint. It's like we're getting to this very especially with people who are very good looking. There's a plethora of options and it's becoming real. People don't have the same. They don't feel obligated to settle down because there's or if they do settle down, there's 10 other options on their phone that they could hop on to whenever anything gets hard. Yes, exactly so it's this. It's causing a very interesting dynamic that I don't think we've ever really explored before in human nature.
Speaker 2:Let me address the first part around false prophets and the pedestalization of these social media gurus and individuals. Only that's an unresolved extension of us as children, pedestalizing our parents and our parents falling from grace because they're human, and that part of us that wants someone to be our savior and so we look to icons in our industry or in our space or in social media, or in media or in Hollywood or whatever it may be right, or in politicians or in other family members or in our partners. Part of that is unresolved trauma around that issue. Part of that is low self esteem, low self worth, lower self accredited value, and until we move into deeper levels of self love and until we become more not about becoming self sufficient, because I'm a big proponent of healthy relationship, I think we grow in healthy relationship. I've seen that in my life. I've seen that in pretty much everyone that I work with, irrespective of the nature of the relationship, as long as it's healthy and there are, I guess, parameters that lend itself to the definition of a healthy relationship. However, when we're in relationship, we grow, we learn from each other. So I'm not opposed to relationship and I'm not saying that you have to be in self love and only self love. What I'm saying is that there is something that continues having us idolize others as opposed to going within ourselves and noticing the value that we carry. And Dr John D Martini says own the traits of the greats. If you admire someone in the world, it could be a sports athlete or star, it could be a politician, it could be a leader, a business leader of an innovative company. It could be. Whoever it may be, what traits do they carry that you're noticing, that you may have and hold within yourself? Because you're noticing them, because at some level you hold them within you as well. And I'm not saying you can't admire that person, but to pedestalize them in unhealthy ways, where you're giving them all this power. For what? Maybe you could direct that power within just a little more, and there's a harmonizing, balancing act there. But we will never get to that if we don't step back out of ourselves for a moment and really look at what is this idolization?
Speaker 1:That's an interesting point about holding those traits within ourselves and that's part of the reason why we idolize these people in a way. It's it's not perspective of heard before. It's not perspective I've thought about. Is that because the reason why you admire that about that person is because you hold in yourself?
Speaker 2:at least a shade of it. At least a shade of it. Yeah, an aspect of it. Yeah, interesting a percentage of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so the second half of that, which is the transactional aspects of relationships, how, in in the work that you've done and I'm sure you get a lot of messages and talk with a lot of people Are you freaked out at all with, like the direction that that's heading in?
Speaker 2:to clarify, you're specifically referring to the us as individuals, becoming largely a society where we think we there's better options out there. Yeah, we don't need to commit, we don't need to lean into relationship the moment it gets difficult, where we're checked out Because there's so many, the perception of so much option out there that I can do better. I don't need this difficulty, and you know I should. If the relationship is hard, it's not the relationship for me, that type of thing. Yeah, I'm concerned about that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah, is there a solution?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do think there's a solution. I think there's many solutions. I think it begins with what I, when I shared at the beginning around being responsible for doing our own in a work. I also understand that there's there's more at play here than necessarily we can see and and that, and what I mean by that specifically is Maybe there's some Soul line stuff happening. In other words, that individual has very specific soul curriculum that they're coming into this world in this lifetime with, and this particular existence that needs to be Express in a very specific way and until they're ready to shift that, if they're ever ready to shift that, maybe they're not meant to shift that and it's beyond my understanding as to why. It's because I have an idea of what's better, or a better relating format may not be right for what they need in this world at this time. That doesn't mean I'm not going to share my perspective or I don't want others to share their perspective. I do because that again I'm. I value learning and growing. I want to grow through learning new things. I also want to to grow through Identifying with a particular belief system or holding a particular reality and deepening that reality, but then also being shown other realities as well. Not everyone wants that. Some people just like to be where they're at. I Think it is an epidemic, I think it's a problem, for it causes us to remain stuck in the shallows and in the surface level of relating. There's nothing wrong with that, however. There's just no progression into greater depth. But depth can be risky, it can be scary. So most people don't want to go to depth. Intimacy has been unsafe for them growing up. Intimacy has shown them that it's. It's not safe to be close to someone. It can come with violence, it can come with rejection, it can come with abandonment, it can come with humiliation, and so it's easy to stay on surface level and a lot of people get a kick from and get they get a hit. I should say they get that dopamine hit from the peak experience of sex and the peak experience of novelty and variety. So from a biological level, a physiological level, where we're spending time, whether we're having sex or not, but we're spending time with new people, new partners, and there's this rush, this limerence phase that we're in this honeymoon period, and there's this hormonal rush that goes through the body and we sometimes mistake that. For in depth of intimacy it's not necessarily that it's simply this physiological rush related to variety and novelty. And so when that wears off and more of the real self or the whole self comes through Because we've also come together not just for pleasure sexual pleasure or physical pleasure, or joy and fun, external pleasures, existential pleasures we've maybe come together to heal some old wounds that the partner will activate within us and if we're conscious that, aware, mature enough, we'll work through those those things. But most of us are unaware of that. I spent most of my life being unaware of what was actually happening when I was in repetitive conflict with my partners. That were patterns coming up over and over again. I was the common denominator, I was. I was unaware to that, I was ignorant to that. And so when we, when we are willing to do that in a work, we can grow through that, that part of what we need to grow out of. That doesn't mean we'll stay together. We may, but we may not. But at least when the relationship ends, it ends on more, firmer grounds and both people have grown and they go into their next relationship A newer, more empowered, greater version of themselves. What I'm seeing happening this is a generalization, of course is that? Oh, plenty of fish in the sea, or good, I'll just go somewhere else. Sure and How's that serving you.
Speaker 1:So, with that said, what would be the? What would be the reason then, to commit again to a long-term relationship? When it is hard, when the variety is fun, and that you do get those dopamine hits from variety, what would then? What is the Beauty in committing?
Speaker 2:Well, you can create variety, for starters, in many ways in your life. It doesn't just have to be through sexual partners or new of course. Yeah, I was. You can create variety, novelty, in various ways. They come from really matters. So are you in a position in your life where you want to commit to a long-term relationship? You may not want to and you may not need to. You may be in a stage in your life where you don't need Commitment into a long-term relationship and you don't need that kind of depth. You can pursue or you can Embodied other other depth in your life in other ways. Right or maybe not. Maybe, that's, you're in a stage in your life where you're not. They come from really matters. And so if you're running from commitment and you hold a fear of commitment, you hold a fear of depth and you hold a and or a fear of intimacy. That's telling you that you're running from that thing. So the actions that you're taking, the pleasure that you're seeking, is a compensation to compensatory strategy To get you away from the thing. You don't want to feel Too much pain. I need more pleasure. This is how I'm seeking it. If you come from is I'm making a very mature choice to not being committed relationship right now, because I'm building other things, I'm interested in other things and I feel that, knowing myself in the way that I do, I want to reevaluate this in one year's time or three years time. Very different come from, as long as it's genuine right, yeah you're not being disingenuous, they come from really matters, because I'm not gonna sit here and say hey, if you're non-committal, you're wrong, you're bad, you're immature, you're less than you're, not spiritual whatever. No, not at all, not at all. But if you come from, is coming from running, compensation, hiding, avoidance, could be something for you to look at, because if you continue that pattern, you'll just continue that pattern.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's a brings up a very interesting conversation. It's, um, I think that that's something that I've probably decided for myself Is that, like I'm in this time of growth and in study and in trying to level up and Really improve myself as an individual so that I can be fit to be that guy, I want to show up as in a relationship, and I think that you know, you see a lot of stuff on the internet now From younger guys about like monk mode. I don't know, have you heard about this? These younger, younger?
Speaker 2:kids, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:They have this perspective that the answer to their problems is locking themselves in their basement and grinding away until they come out with All this money and success, blah, blah, blah, and they think that that's gonna solve their problems. And it's something that you're starting to see time and time again with these younger guys as a real Thing that they're striving for. Is it misguided?
Speaker 2:You know, when I'm asked questions, all that, is it misguided? It's a very valid and it's a great question. I often revert to you know who am I to tell someone the path that they're choosing is misguided? Hmm, and I know, I genuinely mean that. Right, like what the fuck do? I know, I don't know you go alive that person's life, the person, the basement's life, I'd say. For some people Probably fewer than most that's the path they need to take. For others, it's a path of avoidance. At the end of the day, if we're making very active choices about who we want to be and how we want to be in the world, we need to own those choices. There's great power and a sense of empowerment. There's great growth that comes from owning our choices Right. However, I will say that the scenario you described is connected to this notion that hyper external success is Connected to the intrinsic value of a man. That's the fucking problem that we are not worth anything Unless we're delivering External value, or unless we have a lot of money, or we've built businesses, or we have empires or whatever it's called Right, whatever, whatever you want to put around that, or our status says a, b and C, or we have X amount of social media followers, whatever. There's a problem with that, because enough will never often never be enough and and that's not the only value of any human being. Sure, there's value in that, but it's not the only value that we carry, as there's a really cool song, man. It gets me quite emotional sometimes. Most of the time, actually, it's a song why his name is DAX. It's called to be a man. It's a really interesting song. It's sort of cool tune to it as well. Have a listen to it when you get a chance. I would love to, if you're interested. It's, you know, try and sit in a quiet place and just headphones on and just have a listen to it. But it speaks to some of the four and a half minutes song where it speaks to some of the struggles that men face and the loneliness and the emptiness that they feel. And we think, you know, when we pursue and I've been in this place and sometimes I still I'm in and out of this place still man as a man as well, right, but there used to be a time in my life where I would be really down on myself and I'd say, damn, you know, I'm 30 years old and I should be here and I should be doing this. Or I'm 25 years old, I should be doing this, or I'm 35 years old and I should be here and I should be in this place. I shouldn't have this issue and and I always thought Many years ago, well, if I only had this, then everything would be okay. Not really. I take myself wherever I go, so having a whole bunch of money in the bank and I mean it's helpful, I like it, it's great, it's it's it, but it also it does breed more complications. And what I've realized is that what's really fundamentally shifted my internal attitude and the value that I place for myself. The way that I see myself is me is my inner work. It's not how much money I have in the bank, it's not the car I drive, it's not what I own. It really isn't. It's how I see myself, and how I see myself isn't predicated upon those things. It's actually predicated upon, for me personally, the deep inner work that I've done and the, the, the confronting Situations I have faced within myself, the aspects of me I've met, the darkness within me, the light within me, all of it, the deep shadow work that I've done. And Shadow work isn't only dark work. It's light work as well. It's coming to to greater communion and relationship With the parts of me that I'd lost, that I'd forgotten about, that I gave away, that were taken from me. That's where I've really cultivated deeper value and worth. And then my aspirations to create certain things in the world come from a very Different place, that I don't come from lack and deficit and insecurity. They come from excitement, creativity and expansiveness. Man, I get up in the morning and I'm fucking excited to create in the world and I'm excited to be with my baby girl, my daughter. I'm excited to see my family and spend time with her. I'm just excited about life. I'm a clear of vessel.
Speaker 1:That's why I I Think it's one of those things that, for a lot of people, what's it, what's that expression? It's something along the lines of it's easier to Get the Ferrari than to not want the Ferrari.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great expression, man, it's so true, it's so true, so true. Man it is, and I battle with that as well. I'll give you. I'll give you just very real example. So I love watches. I mean, this is, this is just my, not just a great watch, a garment mark to it's a. This is for my biometrics, yeah, yeah, hey, my sleep and all my performance and everything else. But I love watches. I love not dress watches. I love timepieces, mm-hmm. I so I've loved timepieces since I was young. I was young in my teens. I used to live in Perth in Australia and I'd spend a lot of time in Indonesia and Thailand and they sold a lot of fake watches there. So they sold fake watches of really high level brands, right. So I'd always buy these fake watches and I think I was 28 years old or something. I gave all the fake watches away. I threw some of them away. They didn't work. I said I'm not buying a watch until I can afford it Like a proper watch. That wasn't until maybe like two, three years ago, right, and I've started my collection now. I was in Vegas just over the weekend. I took my wife to see the U2 concert for her birthday Belated birthday gift. She loves you too. Loves you too. It was a great time. We're in and out very quick. It was the first time leaving our baby girl and that was difficult for her, but it was. It was good. It was a good time away and she was having a rest in the afternoon and I went to. I went just for a little walk and I stopped at a watchers of Switzerland. It's a great, it's a. It's a global shop. Spent a couple of hours there with a sales guy, joe. They're a great guy and at some point I'll get a watch for him soon, I'd say. But I just wanted to get all the watches. Oh, I know.
Speaker 1:I wanted to get all the watches.
Speaker 2:I literally wanted to spend I don't know probably three, four hundred thousand dollars on watches that I liked. I genuinely liked about five or six timepieces, maybe four or something like that. So I had to stop myself from obviously getting all of them, but even getting one because I just wanted to sit with it. So I can really resonate with the impulse of that and I have an impulsive personality. I have an addictive personality, for lack of a better term. I was a familiar term with people, for people, so I have that. So I'm not in constant battle with that, but I am in relationship with that part of me, right and doing things slower and actually saying I don't really need it, want it you know, it doesn't mean I can't have it, but do I need it right now and just being just being in deep curiosity with that part of me. But it's an interesting, it's a fascinating, fascinating conversation, man, internally for me, I think the why behind it is so important, right?
Speaker 1:It's like why do you want that timepiece for you? It seems like it's coming from a genuine love and fascination with watches versus In factuation, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm man the way these are logical experts. These watchmakers make these watches.
Speaker 1:And I'll be honest with you.
Speaker 2:It's fantastic, I can Fascinating. I can wear a hundred thousand dollar watch on my wrist. The vast majority of people will have no idea that it's that I don't. I don't really do it, for most people comment on this watch. It's gonna why, why man's a nice watch yeah yeah. Then they do on on when I'm wearing my nice watches, yeah. You know it's, it's really I very much.
Speaker 1:I'm fascinated man, I'm obsessed, yes, I think it's so important, though, to know where that desire for that watch is coming from, because for a lot of people, it's not coming from a place of genuine fascination with the watch itself, but of what this watch. What other people are going to think of me when I'm wearing this watch and understanding what that reason is behind the watch.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Provides a lot of insight into.
Speaker 2:It does. Yeah, and you got me thinking a little more now as well, and part of it. You know, I remember when I got my first uh order, my PA, and it's a. It's a beautiful watch. They've been watchmakers for a long time and I felt really accomplished, man. I felt really it was, it was symbolic for me of wow, I'm living the life that I've really always dreamed. You know that, that I can afford a watch like this very comfortably and being a position, a privileged position, to be able to purchase it, uh, in the way that I did as well, through the, through the boutique. I'm very grateful for that relationship and it was just very symbolic of the, the work that I had to do, not the only the external work, but the internal work to get to that position. So it was very, it's, very much symbolic of a personal journey for me and it's just it's. It's also just a hobby and a fascination. Yeah, you know some people have fascinations with other things and and so do I. Have fascination with climbing mountains and being in nature and and and traversing new lands, new lands that I haven't been exposed to, and adventure and nature and all those things. I have many hobbies and this is just one of them for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you mentioned that you, uh, you have a little baby, baby daughter. Now.
Speaker 2:She's not a baby anymore, she's a full blown toddler and, uh, she's the best man. She's 19 months, nearly 20 months old, actually.
Speaker 1:But, uh, I'm particularly curious on what being a dad has has done for you, because you're such an aware and spiritual dude that I I feel like you have a very you're very keenly aware to how that has changed you as a person.
Speaker 2:Very much so, man, it's very much changed me is what I meant by that? It's very much continuing to change me and shift me and, uh, it's been the greatest expansive gift I've received and the greatest, one of the greatest challenges I've been through and continue to go through in terms of touching a little earlier around. You know what it's bringing up for me and what it's revealing about me and some of the self doubt that's coming through. Am I good enough to be a father? Am I? Do I have what it takes? Yeah, I want to be a father and I want to be a father to my baby girl and I'm obsessed with her. I love her so deeply and, uh, my heart is open so much. It's really helping me heal some of my fears around intimacy that I've had in my life and continue to have as well. I think it's helping me really unblock some of that I don't think I know it is which is bringing me closer to my wife as well. So there's there's a lot there and that comes with more challenges having often having a child, especially the first child, as we adapt and the people that we both are as well Uh, it's been extremely difficult and it's been extremely enlightening and humbling and expansive and beautiful, and I can't imagine my life without her at the same time. It's, it's, it's all the things, man, it really is. It's all the things yeah.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating. I almost can't imagine, because it's such a Do you want children?
Speaker 2:Do I want, do you want?
Speaker 1:children. Yeah, absolutely yeah. I'm only 23 now, though, so it does feel like a little bit away but what a boss man, you know.
Speaker 2:I wish I had your demeanor and your mature and I say that from a place of regret, I say it from a place of compliment to you. I wish I had your maturity, demeanor, and your energetic when I was 23. I mean, you're doing great things, man. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:But I think it ultimately goes back to um kind of what we're saying when we started this conversation. I mean, I owe all of the person I am right now to having a autoimmune skin condition when I was 16, and I had to learn how to overcome that myself and figure out how to cure that with diet and all that stuff. I really do think that with all that stuff, the obstacles, the way and like these concepts that you were talking about of healing yourself, makes you just show up so much better in this world, and it's a message I can relate to, and I think that that's the reason why I'm able to be doing this.
Speaker 2:What are you doing in the I'm building the world right now that you're very passionate about. Do you have space for a partner in your life? Do you want a partner in your life right now? Because I heard you say earlier maybe not that you were focused on building I mean I was.
Speaker 1:But I feel a bit more settled now, um, in terms of myself. And you know, I've kind of worked through all that autoimmune stuff and that's kind of a non-issue in my life now. So, um, I feel a lot more settled into the person I am. So I'd be open to it. It's not something I'm actively seeking. I don't feel the need to go out there and like really try to look for that partner, but I'm open to it. I'm open to it.
Speaker 2:And you're not hiding from the world either.
Speaker 1:Like the Smunk mode, I'm not, but in a way like it's interesting, because I'm not a guy who loves to go out and drink and uh, outside of, outside of that dynamic it's it's interesting that the it almost feels like you're hiding because you're not. You're not going out and partying on the weekends all the time. Interesting, yeah.
Speaker 2:So is that the? Is that the scene right now? I mean that. I mean it was when I was. I'm 41., so when you know, when I was your age and in my late teens and so forth, that was the vibe man. It doesn't seem to have changed where you, on the weekends, you go out, you get drunk, you do what you do and party, you dance, you do drugs, you drink, you have sex, you don't whatever, but you know you're out with your friends. Is that the only way to meet people? I don't think so.
Speaker 1:No, yeah it, it isn't. Um, it's probably the easiest.
Speaker 2:Is that what many of your friends are doing, though? Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:But, um, you know, I've I think I've came almost full circle to that point now where I'm much more open to doing that and, like, I think that there's a beauty in that now, whereas, like at the start, when I was really so focused on health and optimizing all that stuff, uh, I thought that that wasn't something I had any interest in. But now I kind of see the, the beauty and the fun in it. So, um, I'm open to it. It's not something I'm like actively avoiding nowadays, but, you know, I think it's like just comes down to, uh, what you value. I love that, this concept from Mark Manson of thinking about where you're at, what things your ideal partner does Like do they go to a yoga class, do they go to a book club, or just like random things of placing yourself in the, in those similar environments. I think that's a helpful thing.
Speaker 2:I always say do what you love. If you love yachting, go and yachting. If you love yoga, do yoga. You love going to the gym? Go to the gym, like do the things that are in line, in alignment with what you value in life, what experiences you wish to have with it's traveling, whatever it is, and just know that you're exposing yourself to like minded, like hearted people, you're increasing the chances of that and that just becomes a base and a foundation to meet people that are in greater alignment with who you are and who you want to be in relationship and how you want to be in relationship.
Speaker 1:So with all that said, like at 23, where I am right now, is there a message that, outside of the stuff we have already talked about, that you would want to stress to me, or just that those men at that age in general, so if we look at, if we look at us as humans, you know both women and men, and just us as humans.
Speaker 2:At that age, developmentally, you know early twenties, mid twenties you're really establishing yourself in the world. You're still, your brain is still growing, man. I mean brain doesn't really stop growing to 25, 27, particularly for men, maybe even a little older, I think, maybe it could be 28, 29. So you're still developing physiologically Doesn't mean you're a baby, of course you're a man, of course you're an adult and you're still finding your feet at some level. And, by the way, we go through stages in our life where we're still finding our feet. You could be 40 and you're finding your feet again. Maybe you found your feet Now you're refining them again. You're re-identifying with who you are in the world. Right, but at this age I would say just really be you, do the things that you dream about. I'll give you an example when I was, when I was 19, 19, yeah, 19, moving into 20, I said I don't. I just I want to travel the world, but I don't have the money to travel the world. And I'm going to do it. I'm going to work on cruise ships. I was going to work on cruise ships. That's it Done. Two years was on cruise ships. I was in doctor's office Again before I was leaving to go to Europe, to go to work on cruise ships, and I hadn't even had a job. I just got a one-way ticket to Europe and I was just going to figure it out and I, opening up this magazine, I saw much of Pichu. I said I'm definitely going to go there. 10 months later I'm there. I just I just put myself in positions where I could experience the life I wanted to experience on my terms. So have rich, diverse life experiences. Get curious about life, get curious about yourself. Be in relationship, be out of relationship, be single. Spend a good amount of time being single, discovering more of yourself. Be honest, be truthful. Surround yourself with with good friends and good people. Eat good food, just enjoy. Not to say that when you're in relationship, you're not going to enjoy yourself. It's going to be a different level of enjoyment. That's all it is. It's just different. It's a different experience that you're sharing with someone else and when you get to know yourself more, you're going to start to define the relationship that you want to be in. What do I mean by that? Do you want full monogamy? Do you want partial monogamy? Do you want non-monogamy? What affliction or shade of non-monogamy do you want? What does partnership look like and feel like for you? What is, what are your non-negotiables in relationship? You have a real opportunity to get to know yourself through yourself and through your experiences. And if there's things that you're passionate about life experiences that you wish to have, don't wait to have them. Fucking, get out there and have them. Man, you want to go to South Africa for six months? Go to South Africa for six months. Don't even really plan it or give it any thought, just go. Things change as you get older, not for the better or worse, they just change. What's not for the worse is a judgment call that we place on it when we're not fully connected to ourselves and we don't trust ourselves and we don't know ourselves. And the other side of that coin is that sometimes it is more intense. But don't be a victim to your circumstances. Create your life, establish that pattern and that habit. Now Do the things that are really neat. Whatever dreams you've got and you may have three or four big competing dreams Well, choose one to go with and just go for it now, paralysis by analysis. Don't be there. Yeah, you may look back in 15 years and get down. I wish I chose that dream, but at least you chose a dream. That's a bit of a rant that I would say.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was a beautiful rant. That was an incredible rant. I think that a lot of guys, what's stopping them from doing that is this need or this societal pressure that they feel to get a job and to walk on this path. Why shouldn't they do that? Why shouldn't guys go out? And not? Because I was having a conversation with a friend and he hasn't found a job yet and I was like dude, you should go, go be a barista and you're up for a little bit of explore, go have some good, because he's a huge traveler and I know he has that desire to do so. But he's like, yeah, but I don't want to look back in 10 years and be ready to start a family and still be a barista. I don't know how to say fair, but I think there's something to be said about that exploration.
Speaker 2:I'll share a story with you. It's not really a story, it's more of a personal practice. I often look through the lens. I look at life through the lens of I'm not sure what's going to happen. So I want to put myself in that position to experience it. So let's just say you and I were talking and you told me that and I was, you know, circa 23, and I'm in that position. The way I would, even back then, how I would approach that would be huh yeah, maybe I meet someone, and not not a partner necessarily. Maybe I meet someone and we go into business together and we develop these chain of coffee shops or whatever. I start getting creative with all the things that could happen and all the people I could meet, all the opportunities that may present themselves. That's what I did when I was 19, 20 years old, as an example. And, by the way, let me say something else to your original question of what guidance advice, what would you say in addition to what you shared earlier? I would say as well if you want to make, go and make millions of dollars. Go and make millions of dollars too, if you want to establish yourself and be financially successful and be financially secure and abundant and then invest your money and retire at the age of 25 or 28 or 30, do that too. Part of me wishes I was more diligent with money making when I was younger as well, and I don't want to say it's a regret, but I struggled with money for a very long time, up until the age of really 35, 36. So most of my life wasn't until coming to the US and meeting my partner that I was on the way there anyway, but really having someone that believed in me and the opportunity that presented itself in the USA, and obviously my drive and my skill set and I was just a very. I was a small fish in a very small pond in Perth and I was a very small fish in a very big pond here in the US. But I had drive and tenacity and I still do very. I'm very driven, I'm very creative, I'm very generative. My generative patterning is very strong within me. But I would say to you as well if you want to go make cash, go make cash, do it. Fuck. Yeah, do all of it, do all of it. That's the thing you can. You don't have commitments outside of whatever you're committed to. You don't have a family, you don't have a partner, you don't have children. They're big commitments. They're not anchors, they're not drag you down, it's not at all. But you don't have that now. So there's a level of openness that you have that you wouldn't have if you had that initially at least. Right, go, do all the things you want to do and establish yourself, make those foundations, create those foundations now. I was able to take a substantial amount of time off because of the life I created for myself when I had my daughter so I could spend more time with her. Very grateful for that. If you can do that now, even earlier, do it Magic.
Speaker 1:I fell in love with this quote. You have to be the reckless prince to become the wise king. Yes, Beautiful and I think it illustrated perfectly in what you just said is this Almost going with the wind and being a bit reckless and doing all these things? It's how you develop wisdom at the end of the day. Yeah, through learning, through contrast. And so you mentioned different shades of monogamy and having clarity in terms of what you want in a relationship. What is your thoughts on that world of polyamory? You hear a lot of stuff nowadays of people doing different things in their relationships and approaching it differently. What has been in learning a lot about this and in studying relationships? What are your thoughts on monogamy?
Speaker 2:No wrong or right Come from.
Speaker 1:What you come from.
Speaker 2:Are you in non-monogamy because you're avoiding? Are you in monogamy because you're hiding or you're scared, or it's an entrenched value system. You think your parents said hey, you've got to get married and you've got to have kids and you've got to have a white picket fence and you've got to do this. Not that, that's what monogamy is. I'm giving you a generalization. I'm giving you an example. It depends on come from, and there's really no wrong or right. There's alignment, there's misalignment. What works for you, what doesn't? If we take into account our biology, our biology tends to lean more towards non-monogamy or, at the very least, variations of monogamy that include non-monogamy, if that makes sense. So it could be. You have an emotional primary partner. You have a primary partner that you live with and that you spend life with and you do life with, and then the sexual component is more varied, as an example of many examples. So, at the end of the day, in partnership or however many people are in your partnership, you dress it up how you want, you make those agreements how you want to make those agreements. At the end of the day, whether you're in monogamy or non-monogamy, they're still cheating and dishonesty in non-monogamy, because if you have agreements and boundaries and you break those, then you're quite and quite cheating, you're being dishonest. Just because you're in a non-monogamous relationship, it doesn't mean that doesn't happen. So you've just got to get really, really clear on what you want and what works for you. I will say this, though the more you heard that saying too many cooks spoil the broth, no, I don't think I've ever heard that saying too many cooks in the kitchen.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, so too many cooks in the kitchen right, it's too much fuckery. One cook, one leader, that's enough. Yeah, too many personalities in one space, like there's? Okay, so warship right. I use that as an example. There's usually one leader on the warship right, one captain, and then there's staff captain, but there's one captain. There's not 15 leaders there. Sorry, non-monogamy three people, four people, five people. It gets complicated, it gets very layered. There's going to be far more attention. There's going to be deeper agreements. There's going to be deeper levels of communication, not any deeper than monogamy, just different. We just have to take all those things into account. And what's your disposition? What's your personal disposition? Are you good with handling all that? Do you want to handle all that? Is that too much chaos for you? Are you addicted to chaos and what you come from? Around there, you know? Do you have a sex addiction and that's why you're in non-monogamous relationship? Or you genuinely want to explore this part of you and it feels very genuine to you Come from really matters? I'm not again. Who the fuck am I to tell you, no, that's wrong, that's right, that's what works for you. I will say to you, I will ask you what you come from what your honest come from. Don't even tell me I don't even care for you what your honest come from, because that will help you determine are you in the right container or not. Relationship container.
Speaker 1:I've been following and listening to Aubrey Marcus's podcast for a long time now. It's been fascinating to see his evolution in that realm and some of the pitfalls that he experienced in trying to do polyamory and the weirdness and confusion and chaos that created in his own life and insecurity within himself, and to see him be this advocate of polyamory and then, with time, move over towards a more monogamous relationship. It's fascinating to see and it makes me realize that is no easy. I definitely think that phrase that you use are too many shifts in the kitchen. It definitely makes sense. I could see again complicated quick.
Speaker 2:It often does. And again, it's a beautiful opportunity to work through stuff right. It's a beautiful opportunity to tend to some needs and tend to some traumas, maybe if it's done in a in a aligned way. But ultimately that's just the nature of relationship, of healthy relating, irrespective of what the container looks like.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts on psychedelics?
Speaker 2:I'm an advocate and proponent of plant medicine and plant sacrament, even synthetic I wouldn't call that plant medicine or sacrament, but even psychedelics, synthetic psychedelics. I started my journey with psychedelics and plant medicine late in my 30s and then I went pretty deep and I continue to utilize sacrament in various ways. I'm very I'd like to believe I am and think I'm very respectful with sacrament. I think it's misused in the Western world. I think it's misunderstood. An example of that and I've written a number of different essays on this long form essays as well Small thesis three, four, five thousand words. When plant medicine was used hundreds of years ago, pre-industrial era, our physical environment was very different. That's interesting.
Speaker 1:Think about it.
Speaker 2:Just toxins in our waterways, pollution, the way the world worked, the fast pace of the world, the advent of electricity in that way Things were different. Our connection to nature was different. The use was different. It was administered and given by spiritual leaders of tribal groups. There was potentially a deeper connection to it. It's commercialized a little bit now. That comes with an infusion of a very particular energetic. So there's something to be said for that. So I think we're too fast in it and for most people I don't want to say there's more trauma now than there was a few hundred years ago. I think that's an inaccurate statement. The trauma that we experience now is different and people have a great deal of unresolved trauma in them. And going to psychedelics especially if the environment and the practitioner holding space for that experience is not in integrity and congruent with themselves and the medicine it's accelerating people's trauma. So trauma is often too much, too soon, too fast. Healing cannot happen in the same way. We must really heal in familiar states of consciousness. So when I really went deep into myself I spent years doing that first before I went into psychedelics and psychedelics became confirmatory for me as opposed to something that was deeply revealing and fucking intense. I went through my intensity in familiar states of consciousness without the use of substances to change my consciousness or shift my consciousness. So again, I'm an advocate for it, massive advocate, in so many different ways. I just believe it's very much misused for the large part in Western society and misunderstood.
Speaker 1:I agree. I think that the energetic component of this is quite fascinating, like you were describing, and especially the way we've demonized it and viewed it, as there's been a lot of propaganda in terms of thinking that it's going to ruin your brain and mess you up big time. So people bring that energy into their experience which affects it, and I think that before industrialization, it was the healthiest and soundest of minds who were the ones that were allowed to participate in sacrament, whereas nowadays, kind of flipping that. And I don't know if that's, I don't have an opinion on that, but it's just fascinating. Note.
Speaker 2:Trisky, it's risky to have someone that's, you know, borderline personality disorder or borderline schizophrenic, or recovering addict moving into other substances. It's. I think we should be cautious.
Speaker 1:And you. A lot of the work you do revolves around breathwork as well.
Speaker 2:It's one modality that I focus on here, for sure.
Speaker 1:And why breathwork and it seems like breathwork has a very interesting component in emotional release and the stuff that you work with why, why have you relied on breathwork in practice?
Speaker 2:I'll probably would kill myself if I didn't, if I didn't find, if a practitioner didn't come to me. A friend of mine rang me up one day and said hey, you should see this lady, she's really great, she does breathwork. Sure, because hadn't completely given up hope, but I was close and it just changed the trajectory of my life.
Speaker 1:Where were you at at that point in life?
Speaker 2:Australia. How old were you Probably about 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:And what? What has switched in that time?
Speaker 2:Oh man, self-belief, self-worth, darkness that I was feeling is really it feels like it's lifted Patterns of impatience, abrasiveness, aggression. They're still. I still have them, but they're they're. They're so much more, they're just softer, they're, they're I'm, I'm in greater relationship with them, in greater communion with these, these patterns that are harsh to my character and my demeanor, that are intense, deeper levels of self-acknowledgment and self-love and self-awareness I think I said this but deeper levels of belief around what I can accomplish, create, embody in my life. And it wasn't just because of that breathwork session, but it's since then, I think, if I understood your question correctly, since the inception of that time and many other beautiful experiences I've had with other practitioners and and on my own as well, including being in intimate relationships, there's been a lot, a lot of shift.
Speaker 1:What was it about that breathwork session?
Speaker 2:that was the standpoint she's just beautiful, non-judgmental, compassionate space that guided me really profoundly and gave me an opportunity to just fully release. And I hadn't. I just had a visceral release like no other. What does that mean? It means that I had an emotional release, a visceral release in my body. I just What'd that look like? Screaming, howling, crying, shouting, purging, not vomiting, but dry, reaching, moving my body in almost uncontrollable, unconscious ways, just releasing energy, moving, movement and sound.
Speaker 1:Did you have? Have you had multiple of those experiences? Yeah, how do you reconcile an experience like that, Like what is going on there?
Speaker 2:I mean now I know what's going on. There are a number of things that need to happen for that to happen. You have to feel safe enough in your nervous system and in your body and your being to allow yourself to go to that place, and sometimes that's unexplainable. What makes that safe? It's a combination of the environment, the timing, the practitioner, where you're at, words exchange, non-verbal cues absorbed, etc. Etc. There's so many things that impact that the breath technique can be very useful. It particular techniques will touch certain parts of the hippocampus, the lower regions of the hippocampus that are responsible for holding unconscious memory, thought, emotion, etc. That can then be released. That breath technique can also stimulate the pineal gland and stimulate the release of DMT as well. And again, if you feel safe enough, you just have an emotional release. Often it's not always cathartic. Sometimes you have visions, sometimes you have very calm sense of self and the sense of peace that you feel, sometimes you fall asleep. It just really depends on what you need, where you're at. There's so many factors that impact that, but ultimately how you reconcile that is through integration. So having a very sound practitioner that can support you in integrating that, because it can be a very confronting experience. Self-care is very important. Post that experience and then working with someone on a regular basis, a coach, a guide, someone that you can reflect back to, that you can get support with as things come up, as information comes up to you that's maybe new, right as thoughts come up, as ideas come up, as you start thinking and feeling about your experience more. And then continuity continuity in growing, continuity in exposing yourself to experiences where you can move energy, where you can get curious, where you can share your feelings and your thoughts as well. That's all part of it.
Speaker 1:Is that holotropic breath work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, essentially.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or a very similar technique to that. So real, intense, heavy breathing. It's fascinating.
Speaker 2:It is very fascinating.
Speaker 1:I have a friend. His name is Michael. He was dealing with bad back, debilitating back pain, for years. The only way he ultimately found relief he tried everything from movement and all the more physical stuff was through breath work and emotional release from breath work and, in very similar experience to you, that released his pain that he had locked for years. And it's crazy, it's just simple breath work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it is really quite simple. It can be difficult to maintain Some sessions. I mean they go for hours. That's more on the extreme end, more on the longer end.
Speaker 1:And if you have a conversation with someone like who you were at that time, right before you entered into that breathwork session, if you were to, if they were here today and you were to try to help them get out of that frame of mind that they're in and those negative patterns, what would you tell them? Just give them a hug, man, yeah, you think that was all you needed.
Speaker 2:No, it's not all I needed, but it really goes a long way, longer than what we think. Just hey, man, can I give you a hug, sure Hug. Just maybe tell them that you know the world needs you more than what you think. The world needs your gifts, the world needs your voice. I know you may not believe it right now, but just hanging there a little longer and let's keep hugging a little more, you know.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you telling that, because I think that, especially for the work that you do, coming from that place makes the message so much more impactful. Because I love this concept of theorists versus a practitioner and how it's the practitioners that I want to listen to, not the theorists. And having overcome those things puts you in that position where you can stand firmly on your ground and say, like I know this because I did this myself, I got through to this point because I put in this work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. It's one thing that I really have spent a lot of time on. Man is in a work. I continue to do that as well. Next week, I'm going to sit in the dark. For a week. You're going to do a darkness retreat.
Speaker 1:Is that the first time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, first time in this way for this long year.
Speaker 1:What's the emotions, what do you feel and go and see something like that?
Speaker 2:No sighted. You know, a bit of nervousness and a bit of excitement. And, yeah, excitement and nervousness, fear, not so much curiosity, but nervousness, nervousness. Maybe underneath that there's some fear, fear of I'm not sure completely yet and I'm purposely not exploring it too much. I want to explore in the dark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you have anything you're looking to get out of that experience, in particular? Because a lot of times you almost need to be called to experience.
Speaker 2:I've been called for a while for sure. Yeah, real deep curiosity man. I'm very curious to see what unravels for me. I just don't know. It feels very novel to me, very foreign, and it's also an opportunity to really slow down. So there's going to be vast contrast. I live a very for lack of a better term I live a very busy life. I live a very full life. I live a very full life with ton of responsibilities and commitments and exciting things and creative projects and family and friends, and I'm not going to have any of that for a week. I'm going to be incomplete. It's really an aesthetic deprivation. I was going to do it faster and I spoke with a gentleman and man. The way he explained it was very beautiful. I'm like you know, I'm not going to do it faster, I'm going to Because he explained it that being in the dark is like being in the womb. It's a very feminine experience. It's an opening that takes place. I really love the way he explained this and he says being in a faster state, which is very familiar to me. I fast every day. I do multi-day fast often. I've been doing it for years. It's nothing you do it 10 days fast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've done multiple 10 day fasts, yeah.
Speaker 2:No problem for me, like it's not a. This is something that I've been conditioned to. I've done it for many, many years, since my 20s, right, so it's something I'm familiar with. It doesn't scare me per se, so I thought maybe it would enhance my experience. But the way he explained it and it was really good for my ego to hear that, right, it was man. Sometimes, again, he goes Steph, depending on who you are. It's different for everyone. But the faster you put you in your masculine, you can be in this conflict and you're not really getting the benefit or you're not getting the fullness of the darkness. I'm like Soul brother feed me.
Speaker 1:That is so beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's so beautiful, and I mean I'm paraphrasing a bit he actually said it way better than me. I said feed me. What are you going to feed me? Tell me, I'm excited to eat now. It was great because I'm always fasting. So I'm like nourish me. Nourishment was a big word that he used and the nourishment connected to the feminine expression. I'm like Surrendered brother feed me.
Speaker 1:Because our masculine energy, that's mission, that's drive, that's overcoming obstacles. That's all I do in my life man.
Speaker 2:So maybe not, maybe definitely. That's such a great idea. So I release the need to fast to make it harder. That's what I usually do. I'm renowned for that. I'm working out with guys. We put a workout out in the bore and I go why don't we just add 100 reps here and do this and another 20 minutes here. I'm just notorious like that. I was going to make it harder, and I know where that comes from. It's a value and worth thing. It's like, well, if I can accomplish this and overcome this and I'm more valuable, you know. So Surrendered. I can't remember why we got in the darkness retreat, but we were talking about.
Speaker 1:Oh, now I can't remember. I said to you we talked about the beauty of inner work, essentially, and how much has helped you in your own life and still doing this inner work and still continuing to do these things.
Speaker 2:And honestly, you know, to be transparent, even deeper inner work than oh, because you asked me what I hope to get out of the darkness retreat as well, right yeah, but even and I'll tell you about that in a second but some of the deepest work that I do is just the conversations that I have with my wife around how we want to be better with each other and how we make requests of each other and the agreements that we forge and confronting those parts of us that sometimes are unpleasant. You know that's deep inner work too. Getting up at a certain time and meditating, that could be deep inner work as well. It doesn't always have to be grueling, it's not as sexy. No, it's not a sets of things. It doesn't have to be as sexy. So you know, when you're making investments investing laundromats and car washers they're not sexy, but they've got a pretty good return. Do you want to look sexy or do you want to make some money? You know, and you can have both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. But, I think what I want to get from this darkness retreat, and what an intention is, is just really exploration. I'm just I'm very curious to see what unfolds for me.
Speaker 1:Has that curiosity built on itself?
Speaker 2:as you continue to do all this stuff.
Speaker 1:It's been ten years now of this deep inner work. It seems like it's one of those things that you just, it just builds upon each other. Yeah, the lack of a better word.
Speaker 2:Absolutely man, and honestly, I started my path in deep inner work when I was a lot younger, in my teens, but I could only go so deep as I just wasn't willing, and able and ready. You know what really, that deep inner work started about ten years ago, that I call it the deep, deep for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that masculine, feminine energy you mentioned it in relation to the fasting and in the darkness retreat and I thought that was such a beautiful example. But that, those concepts and having a fundamental understanding of this polarity between the feminine energy and the masculine energy, and that dance between the two, understanding what each of those energies are and the relationship between them, it is so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's fundamental to us being human. Those energies reside within every single one of us. We can call them masculine energy, we can call them push pull, we can call them giving receiving energies, we can call them active, passive energies, we can call them doing being energies. It doesn't matter too much what we call them. It matters how we interact and how we relate to them. And can we apply being energy when we need to. Can we apply doing energy when we need to. You know, can we be active when we need to, can we be passive when we need to.
Speaker 1:The way it's been described to me is in the way of the spearman, which is one of my favorite books is the masculine energy, is this mission, this drive, and we love to watch other men, or people in general, on that mission, and that's why men love sports. And then the feminine energy is love, and it's why women love rom-coms and they love the story of love and the dance of love. And just understanding that and the differences in males and females on a general level is fascinating. What else about the masculine feminine dynamics should we really understand?
Speaker 2:I think fundamentally, what's even more important than the masculine, feminine polarity dynamics is often what underpins those dynamics and those expressions, and that's in a child work or our development as children, and often our development as children and Tony Robbins speaks to this quite well actually, but our development as children will impact how we show up in relationship and what energetics are our primary energetics? Because often what will happen is, if we experience abuse or trauma or pain, we wear masks to cover that pain, and sometimes we wear masculine orientated masks and sometimes we wear feminine orientated masks and before we know we're adults and we don't know what masks we've got on. We don't know what the core of us is right. And so dealing with those traumas and dealing with that pain at the core level can reveal a more authentic masculine and or feminine expression within the individual.
Speaker 1:That almost becomes more of a magnet to people as well, too.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating, but you almost don't know if you're wearing a mask or how deep that mask goes. It's very hard to decipher what's you and what's the role you're playing.
Speaker 2:That's why we need support for relational beings. That's why we need people in our lives to say, hey, that thing you're doing could be a little better, could be a little different. Have you thought about that? Hiring a coach, hiring a professional, a therapist, whatever it is?
Speaker 1:The coaches is I want to when I have the money. I want to coachify my entire life because I think there's so much value in that right.
Speaker 2:It's helped me, man. I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on myself in that way and it's elevated me. It really has.
Speaker 1:For that exact reason you just described. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, One of them. Yeah, for sure. I hope to really get to the core of my stuff and live a more healthier, abundant life.
Speaker 1:You mentioned Tony Robbins, who's a fascinating guy in the world of coaching and self-development as a whole. What have you learned from him? Because he's a guy who he's almost gotten so big that he's became a legend. Not, he's became legendified, I don't even know if that's the word but, people view him in a different way that they would other coaches. What have you taken away from him?
Speaker 2:He's a very good businessman, that's true. Yeah, he's blown up the space the biggest in the space, for sure, for many years too. Yeah, yeah, look, I think I've trained under him. When I say trained under him, I've gone to his seminars and events. What do I think of him? I mean, I don't know him personally, so I don't want to make a character assessment on him.
Speaker 1:Well, what about those?
Speaker 2:seminars have they been powerful.
Speaker 1:Is it something unique about his seminars versus other ones in the space? Is there something?
Speaker 2:No, yes, I mean, the uniqueness is that he gets 10, 15, 20,000 people. That's, it's been his crowds, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's energy that comes with that. I was going to say it's like I experienced that in breathwork. I used to live in Miami and there's a Wim Hof Breathwork club and I had done Wim Hof hundreds of times on my own but every single time I went with this group, the same breath work, same exact breath work 10, 50 times more intense body shaking in it. So odd the energetic I can't put into words. Yeah, yeah very interesting.
Speaker 2:Anyone that's experienced that knows you don't need to put in a it's. Yeah, look he's. He's a unique cat in the sense that he's revolutionized the industry from a business perspective and he's teaching principles. I mean, are there some that I disagree with or that I would expound upon in a more Articular way? To me, sure, mm-hmm, but I mean, I don't mean, I don't really have that much criticism about him Not that you're asking that, yep, and I really just compliment his longevity in the space as well, and I think he he's a master influencer and and I don't mean that from like a place of a rebellion perspective. Yeah, yeah. I mean, is there narcissism there, with their dark triad there somewhere? I mean I'm not here to make a formal assessment on that, I mean Potentially. But more so I commend his ability to influence people and get to the core of an issue. How deep it is that I'm not sure of. But you know he has helped and and supported many high, high performance individuals, whether it's athletes, business leaders, politicians etc. And so he's probably able to make a dent and his communication is very effective.
Speaker 1:Is there almost a Necessary like that, those dark triad traits it's almost necessary to be to have that desire to even do something at that scale?
Speaker 2:You almost need that aspect of yourself about this conversation a lot man in my men's group. Potentially the answer is potentially yes. You need maybe shades of that to. To to be a not a ruthless leader, but to be a very solid, empowered leader. Potentially depends what type of leader you're talking about. There's so many different leadership styles and types of leaders as well, but potentially, yes, and particularly in times of conflict, if the objective is to protect and quote-unquote win, you may need that ruthlessness there in order to really achieve that. Again, there's counter arguments to that as well, which are why don't we, you know, look for peaceful measures and negotiate? Absolutely? Sometimes you can't negotiate with certain people, so you need a particular disposition that needs to be executed in order to protect your people. If we're at that level of consciousness, that's yeah. So it's a very light question. Yeah, great question, but light hi.
Speaker 1:It was described to me in the podcast that the best leader is the healed Narcissist, is the what not?
Speaker 2:a healed narcissus, narcissus yeah.
Speaker 1:I thought that was a very interesting perspective.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting term the healed narcissist.
Speaker 1:It's almost oxymoron, almost yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now I'm of the, I'm of the camp that not all, but because NPD is a as, a as, a clinical Diagnosis is more difficult to come back from. But afflictions of narcissism I believe I'm of the school of thought on the camp of it can be quite, a, quite healed, it can be worked with, it's not a Dead end. So to speak. Yeah, so it's an interesting term. It depends on where on the spectrum.
Speaker 1:Is there anything we haven't talked about today that you think is Lots we haven't talked about is fundamental to your work, or just a message that you want to get across when you say there's lots we haven't talked about today, what's? The first that comes to mind.
Speaker 2:I just so what's happening in the world today, you know, geopolitically. It's crazy it's, it's intense, man, it's intense and yeah.
Speaker 1:How do you relate that to your work? Think about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did a. I did a post on this the other day, you know. So there's a lot to say to this man, so I'll keep it very, very short. At some point we as a humanity need to band together and say okay when Let me actually say this way you know who Ken Wilbur is. I'm not really super familiar, vaguely 70s so he's a profound author and and and thought leader, and when he passes, I'm of the belief that in hundreds of years from now, or hopefully before he passes, he'll be recognized as the leader that he is. He's a magical man, magical, magical mind, I should say, and I don't want to bastardize this, but I'll paraphrase my own words. And so he speaks to levels and layers of consciousness and essentially he gives an example of this. If there's a level two consciousness that is still entrenched in violence and that level two consciousness meets a level four or level five consciousness that has transcended violence, what does that higher level consciousness do? Because they've transcended violence for their own survival and their own, their own survivability of their own Cultural group? What do they do? They bring down their own level of. Often that's what needs to happen to survive, physically at the very least. Right. We get stuck in this dilemma. So I don't know if there's an easy answer, an easy alternative, man. There's this there's part of the human condition that has been at war with itself and a war with each other. Because we demonize difference for so long, we've forgotten what it's really all about, and what I will say is that something needs to give. I'm not sure what they give looks like, but something needs to give because to there's too many Innocent and non-innocent people dying Unnecessarily. And again, maybe it's just part of the bigger cosmic play and it is one of it is all necessary. I don't know I.
Speaker 1:Was listening to Tim Kennedy and Joe Rogan this week and Tim is a Former still Navy Seal, I believe, and he's a Green brown, I think green breath. Yes, um, and he was talking about how the Russia and China both have massive budgets to Try to stir up conflict and division through social media within the United States and this these two different countries that are wealthy and have the money to do so. It's. It's causing us to be To divide amongst ourselves, for with against bots like we, the they want there to be People. They want us to think things are more divided than they are, which, in turn, makes things more divided than they are, because both both opinions get stronger, yeah, through that. And Now it's scary to think about how that gets multiplied with, just how social media just continues to get proliferated and use just continues to go up, and it's hard to see an end to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're gonna make some changes, man, now in the US, in the way that US relates to itself. I think we're coming to a point this is a far longer discussion, but I think we're coming to a point of some meaningful change that needs to occur, and Maybe the old way isn't gonna work any longer.
Speaker 1:You know, I hope it doesn't, though, come down to what we were saying at the beginning of this conversation, where it's gonna take that, yeah bad. Hard fall from grace that hard fall from grace to enact change.
Speaker 2:I hope that that deep contrast isn't required. Yeah, I hope so.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned Ken Wilberg is his name. Is his work similar?
Speaker 2:to David.
Speaker 1:Hawkins.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's different, it's quite different.
Speaker 1:When you said levels of consciousness. That's what cares what what is If you were to describe Ken's work. Is there? It seems like an overwhelming.
Speaker 2:It is very extensive, because fuck yeah, yeah, it's uh just talking about Just nature of reality, philosophy of life, yeah, and he's developed models out of that, out of his own thinking as well. He's integrated other models into his thinking too. Yeah, deep psychoanalysis of the human condition.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating, there's so much there's so much to read, so much to, so much to explore. Do you have any, any favorites that you urge people to uh, to check out for themselves? I'm sort of old school in the sense that I like to go to ancient texts as much as possible.
Speaker 2:So I'm a student of Vedanta, of Advaita Vedanta, specifically non-jewel Vedanta, so I spend a lot of time in that space. Can you describe?
Speaker 1:what that is and I'm familiar with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a, a way of seeing the world, that A way of seeing the world that is singular. So there is only consciousness and that's it is. Uh, I don't want to say an extension of that. Everything else is Within that.
Speaker 1:We'll just yeah, within that or an extension of that, we'll say there's a quote from I think it's roomy that you're not a drop in the ocean, near the ocean in a drop, and I think that that single singularity was, uh, the beauty in that right. It's like we're all kind of the same, we're all the same consciousness at the end of the day, and it brings in a lot of Empathy in the world yeah. Because you realize that, like if you were in that, if you were in the position of Saddam Hussein, you'd probably act like Saddam Hussein and it's just um. It's interesting to take that perspective. It humbles you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Stuff. This was a absolutely fantastic conversation. I'm so grateful you took the time for uh to do this today.
Speaker 2:Thank you, man. Likewise I appreciate you having me here Appreciate it, thank you, thanks, man.
