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Dan Koe is a writer who rose to popularity by discussing the future of work, modern day philosophy, internet entrepreneurship, self-improvement and more.
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Welcome back to the Alchemist Library podcast. Today on the show we have Dan Coe. Dan is a writer who has exploded onto the scene of social media within the past couple years, gaining millions of followers. In this episode, we talk about how you can separate yourself from the pack, what you can do to become uncommon and a whole lot more. We filmed this one in person in Scottsdale, arizona, so if you guys want to watch the video of this, check it out on YouTube. But I'm going to leave it at that and catch you guys inside Peace. I'm going to read the book. I just want to say congratulations, man, it was awesome. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm surprised you read the whole thing through, because even that's rare, where I had to read it through a ton of times, but then I've only sent it to five to six people and you and another guy, tim Denning, have read through it all the way. I feel like it's rare nowadays to read through books completely.
Speaker 1:I have to say, I think I spent three and a half hours today reading the book.
Speaker 2:Oh, really, yeah, you were just trying to catch up. I was cramming.
Speaker 1:But so I wanted to start with if there was one concept that's had the biggest impact on you, one idea, something that has had a real, tangible difference in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a tough one. So, in terms of tangible difference, I'm good at making things intangible and not very practical and just philosophizing all day. So I'll try to make this one fairly practical or at least understandable. Where the concept is conceptual survival, it's the idea that survival, whether it be human or anything else, is on like a conceptual plane or the mental plane. So we're surviving our identity. So think like, even if it bears running towards you and you feel that stress response, like you would think that that's physical survival, like your body going into that mode, when I personally believe it's you potentially losing the attachments or the ideas or the beliefs that make you who you are and the connections you have to the external world. So like you're going to lose your friends, you're going to lose your family, you're going to lose the work that you've done, you're going to lose everything. And so just to kind of tie it into how that applies to like animals is we're projecting survival onto them. It's not like they think, oh, I'm surviving, I have these survival instincts. It's something we label and identify as. So it's conceptual in a sense, but with that it controls a lot of people's lives because of the stress and fear that people experience on a daily basis, whether they know or identify that as fear. So ideology comes into play a lot in terms of who we think we are or what we identify as. So that could be anything from a religious ideology or a diet ideology, or like a fitness ideology in general, or a business ideology and you see this or political ideology you see this all the time where, like in religion, if someone's a Christian and another person's an atheist and one tells another person that their beliefs aren't correct or something related to that, it's like a battle between ideas and the opposing party feels stressed or threatened because of that and they feel the need to reproduce. So reproduction on a conceptual level is them trying to convert them. Even though most people say they don't want to convert someone, they're doing it through their actions as who they are. It can go a lot deeper than this, but the fact of the matter is is that a lot of the arguments, or just stress or fear that we face in everyday life is because of, like, how we create our identity through what we consume and the actions that we take because of that, so inputs and outputs. So if we take it back all the way to like when you were a kid and the information that you're exposed to and the teachings that your parents give you, your teachers, give you the ideas and beliefs that your friends project on you, that you consume and you possibly accept without question, and it starts to influence the opportunities you perceive in the world, and what opportunities cause stress in you, or arguments or different actions, because you're attached to certain religious or diet or business or health ideologies, or just like even something as simple as you identify as a coffee drinker, and when you don't have coffee in the morning, then it ruins your entire day. So it's little things like that which we could dive into like practical aspects of them, but that's the thing is that survival really dictates everything that we do in life, and our identity has a lot to do, has a lot to do with that, and we have the ability to change our identity with the information that we consume, becoming aware of that information and our actions and our beliefs that are causing these unnecessary stress, responses and fear in us, and then choosing to reinforce those through conscious and intentional action toward a goal that you create for yourself rather than one that is assigned to you by, say, society, religion, a business guru who told you this is the best business model to go after, or health or whatever.
Speaker 1:I was so sure your answer was going to be focus.
Speaker 2:Well, focus is everything like I could tie that into focus Absolutely. It's like the information that you focus on creates who you are with enough consistent consistency and intention, and then that can be like you can focus on that in your head. You can then use that for focused work. Focus in my eyes is awareness, like conscious awareness or consciousness in general, or just being aware of the root of what is and everything that flows in and out of it.
Speaker 1:That's why I have written in front of me conscious awareness, because it was the underlying theme of your entire book. It was bring a particular type of awareness into your life. If you want to live a life worth living, essentially right Like, you need to bring this awareness into everything you do. How did you cultivate that skill?
Speaker 2:It's really. For me it was, I didn't really know as a skill at first, and the way I cultivated it as a kid was observing society. I feel like that's a very good habit, and observation versus judgment here is a good distinction to make, because observation is like you're just kind of watching people's actions and seeing what it leads to the either short term or long term right. So if you're at a grocery store and you see someone with a shopping cart and you don't necessarily like see them as the epitome of health and their shopping cart is filled with certain foods, then you can kind of tie the two together. Not all the time, but you can start to make better decisions by observing what others are doing and seeing if it is leading to the desired lifestyle that you want to live or the desired life that you want to have.
Speaker 1:That's funny that you brought it back to that, because I reached out to a bunch of people who follow both of us on Twitter and asked them for some questions that they had for you, and a lot of the things stem back to what is that like ideal life for Dan? Like what is the next five to ten years for you? I feel like I've already achieved it. That's why I brought it up, because it seems like you're killing it. So what's?
Speaker 2:next. Well, the thing is, I feel like I've achieved it, like for the past, like a lot of my life actually, where, the way that I see this let's break it down like this, where, if I want to become a writer that walks every day and goes to the gym and like I have my ideal day mapped out, that is like those things are going to form my future identity, right, so we're bringing it back to identity and, like that, the action's reinforcing that With that. I can see, five years ago I didn't have the time to do all of those things and that was a problem in my life. That's why I had the motivation to actually pursue that lifestyle. But in order for, I had to identify as that person in that moment and create just a smaller version of my ideal lifestyle at that point in time. That would expand over time, because those are the only things that are going to get me those results when, if I want the body like a jacked physique five years from now, then I'm going to have to do the action, whatever actions I can today with the time that I have prioritized, in order to reach that. And the same thing goes for business, where let's take it back five years where I was working a nine to five job, or this is like four years ago, but no, that was five, working a nine to five job. I only had a certain amount of time to allocate towards the gym, which was after work. I only had a certain amount of time to go on walks, which was just like to lunch, right, like 15 minutes. So it wasn't even that much, but it was something that I was very intentional with, where it's like I'm not going to drive to get lunch, I'm going to walk to get lunch because I enjoy it. And then, in terms of actually working, I knew that I wasn't going to be able to work like a full time entrepreneur or whatever it may be. I'm going to have to dedicate 30 minutes to an hour every single day, no matter like what it is focused on. As long as I am moving towards that desired outcome every single day with consistency, then eventually I'm going to get more skilled at whatever it is I'm doing. Therefore, the more skilled I am at that thing, the more effective I'm going to be spending my time, because it's like in the gym when you get stronger at lifting weights, you go from 135 and then, a year later, with consistency, you go to 315 on the bench press. You're lifting more, you're doing more in the same amount of time, whether that be with writing and the impact of that writing, or reaching out to a specific person and them responding and like paying you money for a product or service that you're offering. Like you're going to get better at doing those things and they're slowly going to get you better results the more consistent you are with them and the more you practice them. So with that, that's kind of what I mean by I was living my ideal lifestyle then. It just took time for that results to catch up and for me to be able to do it full time if that makes sense, that makes total sense.
Speaker 1:So my question off of that, then is I know you're well aware of this concept, that this idea that the most people have of retirement as like Marguerita's on a beach, is a vacation, not a natural retirement, and you always kind of need to have this thing that you're striving for or, like I think Jordan Peterson puts it, like you have to do. Humans are at their best when they're walking uphill, so meaning, I think, that they have something that they're working towards. So, with being where you're at right now, are you like you're 27, 2026, 27 next month, 26, 27 next month? They're, having accomplished what most creators are dreaming of Like? Do you feel the pull to do nothing with your time or to fall into that mindless action?
Speaker 2:No, not anymore, Like there was definitely times when I was starting out that I wanted to do that, but the cool thing about being a creator is that you get to a point where you have so much accountability or, like you're, you're not really forced, but kind of in a way, yeah, like you have to contribute, like it gets to a point where living that meaningful life, like, as Jordan Peterson would put it, where you're walking uphill, you're living at your edge, you're like stepping into the unknown, you're consistently doing novel things, but not things that are too overwhelming for you to do, to the point where you just get too stressed out and you can't do it. But that's it kind of keeps you doing that because you feel like you have a responsibility to deliver something of value to the audience that you've gotten over time. So for me, it's less about that and it's more about like increasing the challenge in a leverageable way, where I was writing the book. So that's something more long term, something I actually have to dedicate my time and focus to. And now there's the software. The book still has to be launched, so that's where the actual work comes into play. So that'll happen over the next few months. But then building a software and branching out of, like the one person business or the small team or it's still going to be a relatively small team, but you know what I mean where it's like actually building a business. That's the next step into the unknown and that's been a lot of fun. But that's kind of it is just slowly increasing the level of challenge and allowing my character identity to match that with the skills and education that I build over time.
Speaker 1:Have you fell into the shiny object syndrome trap?
Speaker 2:I'm not really a believer in shiny object syndrome. I mean it depends on the definition and the situation that the person is in in life. But let's take it back to when I was first starting out and every 30 days, honestly, I was switching business models. Like I was going. I went from SEO to digital art. Some I did more than 30 days, but it was really quick the time I would spend doing them and switching to another thing where it'd be like e commerce, brand drop shipping, seo, content marketing, facebook ads, agency, web design, freelancing, but that thing that went on longer. But it was things like those where even those technically shiny object syndrome and I wasn't making any real progress in that year my skill stack was slowly piecing together like a puzzle to the point where all of these principles that would get results overlapped and it made me see like okay, why am I spending so much time on these things that don't matter? And in the business context it's like I need an offer that's good, I need traffic to that offer, I just need to focus on that. Like, what am I doing right now? If my goal is to make money, why am I spending 30 days building a website and doing all of these things that don't really matter at this point in my journey.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to piece that together because it seems like and I'm bringing that into my own experience especially with creating content where those first 30 days or that, even that first like four months, it's just so much unknown, yeah, and a lot of difficulty. So how do you know whether this is something like I should stick with or there's something I should drop and move to the next thing?
Speaker 2:Well, we have to differentiate here, where I don't see content anymore Like in the past, I saw content creation as like a career or something of that, but right now I see it as like a traffic mechanism to a product or service for like whatever you want to create, but it's a way for you to generate and build traffic with the ideas that you like to talk about, right? So if you know that you want to be doing something business-worthy, you want to do your own thing in general, then, I see content creation as like a very potent and flexible traffic generation tool to whatever it is that you're trying to build, like literally anything. you can pivot at any time as well, where you can have shiny object syndrome with content creation and kind of fulfill the need that way where, if you know Zuby, he like started as a rapper but he still raps right and he still promotes his music, but at the same time he has a fitness e-book. He's, I think he's done like public speaking in the past, but he has a lot of different products and services that aren't really niche, like. They're just whatever he wanted to build because they helped him in his life, and so that's kind of become my philosophy as well is just like solve your own problems and solve the solution. And usually, if we dig deeper into how that actually works, it works out pretty well because you're talking about the things that you like to talk about. You're helping people with the things that, like, you like to help people with. If you are and when I say solve your own problems and solve the solution, that can also be solve your own problems and document the solution along the way, and so that's a good way of attracting people that have a similar identity as you, meaning they view the world in the same way as you, so they have similar fears, they have similar desires, they have similar beliefs, perspective the thing that will allow them to resonate with your content specifically just by you being you and talking about the things you find interesting or helpful, and from that your product will usually be a fit for them, right? So it's like you've got the market research checked, you've got the traffic generation checked, you've got the offer checked, simply because you know it helps you. Therefore, it can help someone else and, of course, you can improve the product over time. You have all the boxes checked just by you being you, with content creation as a way to attract people to you.
Speaker 1:Reminds me of Bruce Lee, because, on one hand, you know he's an actor and if you love his movies, you like him. And then, on the other hand, he's a philosopher. If you like some of these ideas that he's talking about you, you like him. And then if you like his movies and you like his ideas, you really like him. Yeah, but then, on top of that, if you love martial arts as well and you like all three of those things, you're a super fan. Yeah so it's like it almost creates more true fans, right? That's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they One thing that gets a lot of people. When I teach that philosophy of turning yourself into business is like okay, well, what if I have interests that aren't really related to each? other where it's like I have Writing as an interest but I also have fitness as an interest and there's obvious connections there where they're both self-improvement related. But at the same time, people forget that Like people can become interested in other things. Like I Became interested in fitness when I initially wasn't, I became interested in writing when I initially wasn't. So if you attract someone that is interested in fitness with your fitness content, they can become interested in writing. And even if they aren't, it's not like they're gonna Unfollow you. They're just gonna scroll past the post, right, some may unfollow you, whatever, but then it brings it to that where if you, rather than them only having to like those three things because with content creation, like Bruce Lee isn't a content creator With them you're constantly Holding their attention or you are like putting valuable information in front of their face, so it's not like they there are gonna be suit certain super fans that connect with all three things that you talk about. Rather, over time, more and more people are going to become those super fans because they'll start to realize and have their identity again Conditioned by the content that you're putting out relating to whatever their interests are or aren't. So a fitness person can become interested in writing. If you talk about that from the right angle to them which you have a lot of options I mean you have a lot of times to do that the more content you put out. And then let's say the other interest is Spirituality, then they can get introduced to that as well, as they become more familiar with you and start to like you more and more. So it's like kind of you're able to create more super fans but at the same time, by having multiple interests and not necessarily niching down traditionally, you also have a magnet to attract more people and grow broader and bigger, and Then your niche is the interconnections between them. All that creates the super fans, which Is Much more niche than just choosing one of those that other people are competing for. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's a lot more specific. Yeah, it's a very interesting perspective, the niche of you being more niche than picking a niche.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool like just the complexity of it is more niche than yeah. I mean it's so cool though.
Speaker 1:I love this concept of like being a renaissance man and Allowing that to flourish within you and flourish within your content, and so, with that said, that's something that you preach and talk about. If you were to have a school, you were just to develop, try to develop a complete mind for the young ins, what would your curriculum look like? What would that? How would you approach that? You kind of have a school in a way, but it's not as broad?
Speaker 2:I well, I consider Content creation like a public school. Yeah like for the yeah, I Could. I would take it very seriously to the point where, like, I'd map everything out from like with my marketing knowledge. It's like okay, level, every single class would be like level zero or level one level of awareness to level five in terms of introducing them to a problem With any given topic and raising them up that way. And but I would start it with specific principles on the topics of critical thinking, understanding ideology as a tool, rather than, like attaching to one and letting it rule your life. So diet, business, religious, whatever and noting truths between them. So experimenting with ideologies and Noting the truth within them, like between the ones that you experiment with, and using that to create your own Right. So then you have something unique and it's rather fulfilling to do that. The next thing would be a breakdown of what identity is and Like how to Create yours in a sense, but that's it's so complex, so that would kind of be like a Standard course. That'd be like algebra, one through four, yeah, but it'd be like identity, one through twelve, if not life, and so that's never ending. One, yeah, and awareness, consciousness, etc. I Would personally have to like see the value, like. I know that there is value in like English and Algebra and all the things that are already in schools. I'm just not too aware of them because I haven't made that connection or taught them myself, so I'm sure there's room for that and that would potentially be included. But then a lot of it would just be based around like Generating your own goals, pursuing what you want to pursue, having the resources available to learn the skills that will lead to achieving those goals and and really helping with Just that process in general, which I feel like is the creator economy, but it's more on the individual and there isn't that. It's like the school would be created to teach people how to Utilize the real world to do what they want, rather than just be trained into specific aspects of society that school is has. I don't think it's a conspiracy theory or anything that oh, school is directly tied with these things. I think it's just the way that it's evolved over time and it has made financial sense for them to Do where it's like. Schools train you into College. College trains you into some kind of job. That's usually why you're going, that's the intention of going to college, so it makes sense that they would be pushed to do that more, and then All of that is directly tied with like government, job, employment, etc. Etc. So my school would kind of be the Similar to that, but without being directly tied to any specific institution.
Speaker 1:Do you think that's something you ever be interested in doing? Yeah, another road, because I could almost feel you excited like or the curiosity with it.
Speaker 2:You know, no, we've so Originally I've thought of doing Before the software. I was this close to buying a space to build a gym and the gym would have had like co-working space eventually like coffee bar Place where you can have retreats and seminars and stuff. That's kind of on the back burner while the software is being built. That took priority. I'm enjoying that more, I would think. But but One of the people that I'm building the software with, justin Scott, he has always wanted to buy out an old university when they go to zero and then like we build our own and it would have Like everything that we talk about in our self-improvement circles online. So it have the gym that have. Like his girlfriend would be the yoga instructor there at the start. There'd be like online classes, there'd be in-person classes, there'd be different martial arts, there'd be All of the things that we kind of find important in our niche little areas of the internet. So I could definitely see that happening down the road and we've been toying with the idea of Like that would be an extension of the software or like the company that we're building with it. So it'd be more feasible that way. So who knows? Now you got me all curious about this software.
Speaker 1:We we don't have to go too much into that because I know you haven't spoken publicly about it, but this world of AI is one like I'm particularly curious in how it applies to our future. I mean, seems like so many people have such a doom and gloom sense of like what the hell the next 10, 15 years are gonna look like with the Compounding of nature of AI. Yeah, what do you think about AI in general and how a foxy creator economy and just the stuff that you do and talk about.
Speaker 2:I'm fairly optimistic. Yeah just about all things in life really. But If so, for those who first, I'll give credit to Justin Scott for putting me on to like so many different books and short stories that I've read Just recommendations from him that are really good, one of them being the Gentle seduction. If you just Google that, it's a short story, probably like 30 minute read, but it talks about it's a short story fiction about the singularity and how that'll look, and that kind of pops into my head whenever AI comes into play or even when people say like, oh, you're gonna die someday. Mm-hmm and then I can't help but think like are we in our generation, are we actually gonna die, or are we going to reach that point in technology where we can like? I know Brian Johnson is like attempting for first-aging but I Don't want to sound like a lunatic, but this is just an extreme example of like nanobot technology. I don't know anything about it. Yeah, but what if Nanobot technology you take a pill, has nanobots, gives you some form of immortality?
Speaker 1:because they're cleaning out things.
Speaker 2:Your body yeah and even then being able to like transfer consciousness you if you haven't seen, like the show altered carbon or certain other shows where they have like stacks when you can take out the stack and just put it in another human body, like. I feel like that's a potential in my eyes, maybe. So AI coming into play. I kind of see it as Something that is going to force more human creativity and it's going to force newer and better jobs, with the jobs that it creates and the efficiency that it creates in work and being able to advance certain Domains a lot faster than we can as humans. Like. If AI can do ten times the work of what humans can do in an hour, then that's only going to advance that domain. Eventually, jobs will have to be created. I know there's some statistic where it's like 65% 65% of jobs have yet to be created yet. Don't know how accurate that is, but that's kind of the repeating. That's what's happened like decade after decade is we don't really know what jobs are going to be available and the people that are trained by schools or Don't value self-education or aren't adaptable in their skill set or able to learn very quickly which would also be a subject in the school is just how to learn Like. People that know how to do that can adapt to any market and usually get a high-paying job fairly quickly, right. Like coding you could study or at least this was a thing for how I got my first job is like I could study coding online for free mostly, or with cheap courses for Six months to a year and get an entry-level job and work my way up along the way, right, so I see that being the case. More than AI taking over the world, I see it being complimentary. But all of that is to say that I don't really use anything related to AI. Like I've used chat, gpt, maybe like five times for, like, google search stuff, and that's really it.
Speaker 1:Like I'm not too interested in it right now because it seems fairly underwhelming, at least to me so I guess, with that, then, do you think that the people that will flourish and won't have any issues in Adapting to that new world? Obviously the people who know how to learn and are very consciously aware of the world around them will be the ones that flourish. But, more specifically, the people who are the creatives, the personal, the people with the personal brand in the creator economy. It seems like those are the people who are becoming the hardest to replace with AI.
Speaker 2:I agree because they create their own career. They aren't dependent, or they're dependent on readership and everyone that allows them to create that career, but they aren't dependent on the one thing that is, giving them an income right? So in that sense, like, if you're able to adapt and understand the principles of business, then I don't see your income going anywhere very quickly unless you're tied to specific niche or product or service, that like ideology again. So like, yeah, if you're not able to change one who you are which is like your skill set, beliefs etc. Compose that who you are. So if you aren't able to change who you are, then it's going to be difficult to like, be the character that the game requires.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gamify things yeah it's a common theme with the stuff that you talk about. Yeah, gamifying your life. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2:I noticed way too many patterns for it not to make sense. Like in flow the book just by Mihai Chickset.
Speaker 1:Mihai Can't believe you just pronounced that last name correctly.
Speaker 2:I'm good at it, I practiced it because I know I'd be saying it all the time, but like to get into the flow state. There's a good amount of requirements. Like there's a lot of things that you can study and understand about it, but the main thing is just skill and challenge. So it's like level of the game and whether you're a higher level than that or you're lower level than that, like if you're too low of a level, if you're level one and you're facing a level 50, you're going to die in one hit, but if you're level 50 and you're facing level one, this is not going to be fun. So the thing there is like you have to play at your level and slow. That's oversimplified. That's how you create the good life. By tapping into degrees of the flow, state is at any given domain of your life health, wealth, relationships, finances, business you are trying to just slowly reach the next level and do the things that allow you to reach the next level. And that's going to be different from everyone, because some people are going to be like you're going to be a level one and you're studying a level 50 and they say to do this, this and this, without bringing it into the context of the creator, I mean the beginner like they're just saying here's what I do. They may not see that as, oh, he's a level 50, it took them a while to get there. They're going to try that they're going to fail, and then they're going to potentially be all upset about it and not try again. So that's like one thing that made sense with gamification.
Speaker 1:I don't know the exact quote that you used, but you said something along lines of the more you're in flow, the better your life is, and it seems like outside of sports the average person has outside of sports, when they were playing back in high school they don't really have anything that puts them in that flow state anymore. I feel like the average adult. I would love to see a survey of this one. The last time they felt like they were in flow and I would sure it's 20 plus years for so many people and I know writing obviously is one of those things that puts you in flow, but do you think so? That means people need more creative endeavors that put them in that state, or what are the things that people can be doing if they're hearing this and they're like flow equals a good life, but I have no activities that put me in flow.
Speaker 2:It comes down to a lot of things, because really anything can put you into flow and it's a state. It's a state of mind that has certain degrees to it. It's like on a spectrum, rather than like flows on or flows off. It's more like a bar of like I'm at 50% flow, I'm at 100% flow. But the way to get into it, in my eyes, is solve your own problems, and the way to do that is one you identify the problems, you become aware of them. To you set a goal that you want to achieve, preferably big and irrational, because that provides vision. Some people are against like big and irrational goals because they think they don't serve a purpose or they're just too far out there when that's not the purpose of setting the goal itself. You're not really too focused on that in achieving that because the gap between you and it is so far. You don't have clarity. It's like that's level 100, your level one. That's a bad recipe, just with nothing in between. So what it does is it provides vision and that's arguably more motivational than a small goal where my big goal to, in two years, have six pack abs, be laying on the beach, look amazing, attract all the women, whatever it may be like, you can fantasize all day long. That's a lot more motivating than I want to lose a pound a week, and I'm going to focus on that because you don't see any measurable progress. So you need both. You need the vision and you need to break that down into sub goals, just for clarity. Like none of those goals that you just talked about, that's for perspective, that's not for oh, I can't wait to achieve these goals, I'm going to hit these exactly. It's to gain clarity, to understand the path is to understand what you need to do and what you need to learn and what you need to educate yourself on, and just having the mind and perspective to be able to stick that out and know how long it's going to take. And then, when you get down to okay goal for this week is to lose one pound then you're in a good place. You really know what you should be doing on a daily basis to achieve that. But then you repeat this for each domain of your life in a manageable fashion, where people that have more time on their hands like kids that are in school or like during summer or something like that young people have a lot of like. A lot of them take for granted how much they, how much time they have, and they could fill it with getting into flow site by doing these things, and so you can set a goal for health, you can set a goal for business. You can set a goal for relationships, if you want and health, wealth, relationships, happiness so you can possibly set one for spirituality but then with each of those things, now you have a challenge and responsibility that you can take on and your actions have to follow that and you have to adopt the identity over time in order to become that person. So if I have the health goal of getting six back abs whatever losing a pound a week then I need to. I have something to do. I have a vision and motivation and clarity on how to get there, and that is where I'm focusing my actions and what I'm actually doing. So first thing I need to learn is like how do I eat in order to do that? What are the fundamentals of all of that stuff? And when you have that meaning and intention behind your actions or the things that you're consuming, it becomes a lot more meaningful rather than like oh, I know that learning about nutrition is a good thing to do, so I'm going to do it, but I don't really have anything to apply it to. I don't have the goals broken down, I don't have the perspective, the frame from which I can perceive this information so I can extract something important that applies to the goal and then start experimenting with that thing and slowly start building that feedback loop of results, day in, day out, that keeps me going, and slowly it just becomes habit and identity. And then over time you have all these habits that create your ideal lifestyle that you did for so long.
Speaker 1:But now it's built up over time and to build on that, the anti vision which was a part of the book that I really enjoyed, which is this concept of tape doing that same exact thing, but with the opposite end of the spectrum of everything you don't want in life. It's. It's cool because it gives you something to run towards, but also something to run away from, and I feel like having something to run away from as oftentimes even more powerful, more motivating yeah because that's what people are doing a lot of the time.
Speaker 2:That's what most people's actions are based on tying it back to like survival and identity is like people are in fear to go to the job or see their boss or be graded at school or at work, and so when they're off school and work they do everything to kind of hide from that right, they distract themselves, they'll watch TV too much or whatever it may be like. All the actions are different and that's just that with the anti vision, you're doing that consciously but you're forcing yourself in a better direction. It's like here's what I don't want, here's what I don't want and I need to push the other way. And if I have clarity on both of those, then my frame of reference just becomes so much greater where all of the information I'm perceiving in life gains some form of meaning, where I can identify something as I don't want that in my future, and that kind of just gets stored. And so the next time an action comes up where you're faced with a decision related to that, you're going to make a better decision. And the same thing goes for having the vision. Where it's like I want that in my future, you take mental note, it starts to build up and then again it's all just framed around human behavior and decision making, because that's really all that matters.
Speaker 1:Everything else outside of that, all of the speculation and vision building and goals, is to create the perspective that will allow you to perceive situations in a way that leads to decisions that lead to that ideal future, and one of the biggest things that stops people from even starting on that path towards those big and irrational goals is limiting beliefs, and I'd be curious for what your limiting beliefs were when you were at that first stage of the creator economy, because so many people see you now as this guiding light and I think that when a lot of the people who are first getting started, they don't feel like those people are human. They think that there's fundamentally different than them in some way and that they didn't have those same beliefs in their head when they were first getting started, and it's only through actually doing things that you realize. Oh shit, everyone's kind of like that. What were some of those beliefs for you?
Speaker 2:One big one was that people weren't going to like what I posted, or that. A big one that actually sat with me a lot is that I would be wrong in the things that I'm saying, where I would post advice and then someone more knowledgeable than me would come in and comment and say how I'm wrong or start some form of an argument. That happened very rarely, but it was always like that was the belief in my head, where it's like I'm not knowledgeable enough to give this hard advice. Should I post it anyways, because it did help me and that was kind of that. And then, you kind of just do it anyways, and then the limiting beliefs start to fall off right, Because it's just a belief like what's going to happen if you just think it through in a positive direction and eventually it is no longer a limiting belief.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're doing it anyway, right, yeah, that's everything, because we all have that imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, that's always the thing that came to my mind where I did have more limiting beliefs in the past and they stuck with me for a bit longer, and now it's like some pop up here and there, but I can move past them a lot quicker because I have the experience to do so and, like know whether or not I'm bullshitting myself. But one thing I've always thought that I feel like a lot more people should and this is difficult, it's like easier said than done, but realizing, like what else are you going to do? You have to weigh your options. Where it's like you have the limiting beliefs of oh man, I don't like people may think this is a bad post, or that I'm wrong or whatever it may be, or that I'm not knowledgeable enough or skilled enough. Step back and like what are the two decisions? It's like you post it anyways or you don't post it, and what's going to happen there? Where it's like you're not giving people a chance to comment and say what they think of you, but you're also not giving yourself a chance to prove yourself wrong. And the same thing in the opposite direction is like if you post it, you're probably going to be proven wrong and your limiting beliefs are slowly going to fall away, or you're going to have to encounter that problem like the person actually commenting and saying whatever they want on your post and you have to deal with that. That's a problem that you have to acquire the education and skill to mentally overcome and at the end of the day, when you move in that direction of just posting anyways, you're forced to develop the skill towards a better life. either way, like it's, a more positive life and the other direction is just a more negative life or just one that doesn't get results and digs you deeper into a rut without you really realizing it. That's one. Oh man, this is one thing I've been I was thinking about this a lot today is how I like to exaggerate the points in my writing to the point where they become like absolutes or they just sound very harsh and I know they're wrong, like I know that there is nuance to them, but I post them exaggerated anyways, because to me it's less about the literal interpretation of my writing and more about the metaphorical, the more about how it makes someone feel the point or the essence of the writing and what it helps people do and which direction it pushes them in. Because I can write something that says 99% of people are miserable with their lives. And, yes, I can step back and most people can step back and look around and see, no, that's not really the case. Like some people seem pretty happy, but then you really think it through and it's like most people are like silently miserable, even if they have those periods of happiness or not. It's like the highs and lows of their life are a lot smaller than that of someone who was like pushing into the unknown and really experiencing life, those real highs and lows, the contrast that really makes life meaningful. So to me it's not that they're 99% of people are super miserable with their lives, it's me trying to like shake someone and make them see like how just kind of dull it is to live and repeat the same actions over and over without taking the risks that lead to the highs and lows that lead to something meaningful.
Speaker 1:And I think what you were saying before about sending that tweet versus not sending a tweet, and how we underestimate the, the result of not taking action, and it leads to entropy, which is like a key concept in the book, but it's we feel like doing nothing will is the safe choice, but in reality, because entropy is the law of the universe, that is not the safe choice, because you're getting worse. It's not, you're going nowhere, no, you're getting worse from that. Yeah, so if you aren't growing.
Speaker 2:You're done. Yeah, there is no staying the same, Like even as much as people want to stay the same or want things to stay the same. It's like the law of impermanence in Buddhism, or just entropy, where it's like everything tends toward disorder and chaos and if you don't put energy in whatever fashion like in your life, it's towards a goal. You're investing energy and towards a goal to reverse entropy and like feel that that's what feels very good reversing entropy, taking on that challenge, flow, state, good, state of mind, whatever it may be. That's how you tap into it and you get that feedback over time. And so that's why I think it's hard for me to want to fall into the rut or like go after that mindless action. Going back to the question you asked earlier is just because I know that that is going to go so much further down than I would initially think of, and so I have to just continue putting energy in building it and doing the things that I want to do, Because that's the other thing is, a lot of people think that they want to just sit around and do nothing when they haven't really exposed themselves to the experiences that they do want to do and be able to create a lifestyle out of that.
Speaker 1:So essentially, what you're saying is that they've never experienced what it's like to achieve X, or what it feels like to have the Six-Fact and to be feeling great, so that so they don't, they'd never take that action to get to that place, because they don't know what it feels like to be there.
Speaker 2:In a sense. Yes, like the thing that I always come back to and think about and I get really repetitive with this is just like the default condition path of life in this decade, which is go to school, get a job, retire at 65, marry the person that you don't really want to marry, do all the things that other people tell you to do, pursue all of the goals that everyone assigns to you. Never break out of that and do the things that you want or generate the goals that you want to achieve. So with that, that's the life that most people start out on and a few people break off most, some people go back to it. But the point is is that's like you can't even put a number on it. But if I were to try and put a number on it, it would be that path is 0.0001% of reality. Like that is so so, so, so, so, so little. Like you think of an oak tree and how much that branches out and you think of that as like a watered down view of reality and you think of a leaf as and the lines in the leaf as that path in life and you've never like backed out, gone to the root awareness to be able to see all the branches and then be able to choose one go after it come back, choose another and eventually stumble across the thing that you do want to pursue. Or you really feel the urge or the pull to pursue that thing, and then when you start investing energy into it, then it just the gravity of it becomes more and more like you want to continue pursuing that simply because of how good it feels. And so if you haven't exposed yourself to that thing and you're on that default path, then the thing that you want to do is avoid the default path. You just want to go home, you want to lay around, you want to watch TV. Some you may want to go to the gym. Maybe you enjoy that, but most of the time you wake up at 65 wondering where your life went and just doesn't sound too good.
Speaker 1:That's why I love the saying the obstacles away, because I feel like for the majority of people who escape that path, it takes something that in the moment seems very negative or awful even. There's like a sense of it almost takes you being in a very, very low point to realize oh shit, this isn't what I want, this isn't the life I want to live. I need to explore other possibilities.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it depends, Like for me it's usually embracing the low that leads to a high, or really immersing my mind in the problem that I'm facing rather than trying to avoid it. Because if the only thing on my mind is the problem that I'm facing in my life, then again that's kind of like my operating perspective or frame of reference and I'm going to start to perceive information and like stack potential solutions for that where, if I feel like absolute crap and just hate my life, hate my job, whatever, but I actually feel that, like I'm not just drowning in that, where a lot of people do that, where it's like I did it for a while to have my job, where it's like I hate this job and it would end there. It's like I hate this job. Okay, I'm going to go home in a little bit. I'm going to dread going back the next day, but I'm going to go back the next day. And I'm going to say the same thing. And so you really have to feel it, you have to write about it, you have to like dig into what that problem actually is, understand the problem, become very problem aware as people would say in marketing, like when you're writing content or landing page your job is to make people aware of this, like of the problem that's not really a problem yet and hopefully changing their life because of that. That's what I think separates a good product from a bad. Is like changing the lives of people based around real problems, not creating problems that don't exist or aren't too important. Back to the point when you really feel it out, you start to not only notice it in more people because it's your frame of reference now. It's the only thing on your mind is the problem and everything associated with it. You notice it in other people. You start to notice more at your job and you stack more reasons as to why you hate it and it really like starts to dig into you. And then, let's say, you're on social media. You're operating from that frame. You notice someone talking about a business model or really anything related to self-improvement and You're much more open to that simply because you have that problem top of mind and You're more likely to Be curious rather than cope, where I see those two as like Polar ends of each other. It's like you're either curious about something or you're coping as to why you can't. It's like, like, why should I Versus why can't I? Like why can't I do that versus why should I do that. And then one is very like you can see these people online. It's very, very loud very loud. Yeah, where it's like they just go over all of these things that Like as to why they shouldn't do something or why they can't. That gets them nowhere. That just wasted 30 minutes of their time. But at the same time, the curious people they're the ones that ask questions, where there's a lot of lessons in this, but that's the main thing is like, when you feel angry About something online, it's usually because you lack perspective or understanding of what they are saying. You're missing a piece of the puzzle and you should ask a question. You want to be curious and condition your mind to be curious so that you can learn more and you can expand your perspective Rather than just go off on them, at least to nothing good like that. Think it through and you will not find a good outcome for that path. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that curiosity is Joe Rogan superpower. I saw this meme the other day and it cracked me up and it was nine out of ten Dentists recommend crest as the best to best toothpaste. And then there was a picture of Joe and he was like and the quote was Jamie, can we get the Doctor on the show? Find out what he's thinking? But just that idea of being relentlessly curious and have a fundamental understanding that, like everyone's your teacher, you just go so much further and it almost builds in Responsibility into your life, because that coping, by definition you're almost not taking responsibility for that thing that you're coping with see, I'd note this and I consider it somewhat synonymous with challenge, because the challenge challenge, so like skill, challenge, match or struggle With that.
Speaker 2:It's the same thing about level one versus level 50, like if you take on too many responsibilities at once, you're gonna overwhelm this, gonna cause way too many problems. Like you have to progressively Overload the responsibilities you take on and you have to filter them very well to see if they are actually mutually beneficial or if you aren't, just like wasting your time and energy on them for no reason. Right, because again, it goes back to just frame of reference and how you view the world and it brings meaning to the information that you perceive, where, if you have a responsibility or a potential problem or a challenge or a goal, like that's the thing about responsibility is that creates a goal or an outcome that you're trying to achieve with whatever it is that you are responsible for, and so you're perceiving information and you can extract the signal from noise, you can take the important things, because it is applicable To that responsibility, challenge, goal, whatever it is that you're working towards or caring, the emotional labor or emotional weight that you're lifting, and so, again, life being a video game and that really transferring over into everything. It's the same thing with lifting weights, where it just feels good, like people that go to the gym and they see that progress, they see Like the results that they're getting physically from lifting the weights. A Lot of those patterns transfer over into like emotional weight lifting or just have taking on responsibilities or nurturing relationships in your life and progressively overloading those until, like, you see the results that come from those, which is just being surrounded by People and things that truly benefit your life this thoughtfulness and questioning that you bring into life.
Speaker 1:It's pretty unique and In this world on Twitter, you've became, like we said earlier, like a guiding light for a lot of creators. Do you think it is that thoughtfulness and questioning that has separated you from the pack? Have you thought about what was the difference between you and the other Thousands of people who tried to get to the point where you're at?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought about it a lot and it could be so many different things.
Speaker 1:And it probably is a bunch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like it's a bunch of different things that like just compound, where, as I said, where I tried all those different businesses, I took all these different classes in college and like I had this very diverse skill set where I wasn't like exceptional at anything I wasn't the best web designer, I'm not the best writer, I wasn't the best graphic designer, but I got like average to above average. All of those things and it all combined into what I do now and how I'm able to articulate things. Because this is somewhat unconscious competence where, since the beginning, when I was writing tweets, this is just one example when I would Pay very close attention to the design of my writing. Hmm, like how it looked, yeah, on the mobile screen and if it was like aesthetic to read, and if it wasn't just like blocks of text, if the text was like slanted, if the list was aligned in a way that looked cool or guided the readers down the page. So certain things like that and really paying attention to the visual representation of the writing and not just the writing itself. Same thing goes with like profile picture, like there's intention behind the, behind the fact that I'm looking to the side. It's because I read this study when I was studying web design that people are more likely to read the Like writing if the image is looking at it, where they did like a heat sensor as well, where there's a baby on the screen and it's looking at the camera and then people are looking at the baby. But if the baby is looking at the text to the other side, then people look at the text. So it's like, okay, I want more engagement on my tweets, I'm gonna look at my tweets so people aren't staring at my profile picture and that could have led to like marginal engagement. So there's a lot of different things and I would think that's the factor is like the curiosity, the thoughtfulness wanting to Cover my bases. Like, especially in newsletter, I feel like I have to write a book for every single one because, like there's so much that goes into it. Where it's like I feel like I'm cheating people if I only give 500 words in a small newsletter. Like it just there's so much more to any given topic and I know there's the whole quote. Like it you don't understand a topic. Well, if you can't make it simple or something like that, yeah, I don't believe that at all. Like there are Simple things like I could. I Was thinking about this yesterday. I forget the example I had in my head, but there are a lot of things that are not as simple as just like a one sentence or a 500 word newsletter, because, like, if you're writing advice for someone on how to get a specific result, you kind of sort of have to account for the entirety of your life that led to you getting that result. Or else you're giving people Like a prescription that isn't going to help them as much as they can. So the more that you dissect, like what led you to that point, the more firepower you give People to actually make that decision, rather than just like step one, step two, step three, step four. Here's how you do it. That's also helpful in many cases because it allows people to have clarity and go in and fail at whatever they're doing. But at the same time, I do think the most helpful thing is the fluff of the book that people don't like to read, because there's a reason it's there and there's a reason that the author wrote it, where people say, like just get a little, get get rid of the fluff, I just want the actionable advice. Yeah, I see it the opposite, where it's like give me the fluff, I'll read the actionable advice, but I know that's not the thing that's actually going to change my the results that I get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it comes down to giving and getting more nuance with your perspective and things to talk about. And that damn profile picture dude, every single, every single account on Twitter has copied that profile picture. I've seen I'm sure you have, because it's all over my timeline as well. But With that said, I've like I've been on tweet hunter and I've looked through your past tweets and then I've looked through other people's past tweets and then I've seen, oh, I saw that one from Danco first and that like word for word, yes, and I could tell you who it's. A bit it's a pretty big account, but Don't say it now. I won't say it now I'm not gonna say it now, but this imitation game is something that is quite prevalent on Twitter and, out of all people, it seems like you're the guy that everyone's imitating and you realize that that it does it frustrate you.
Speaker 2:Not really, because that could be another superpower where it comes back to me exactly. You know what I mean. So they're doing themselves a disservice, but that's the other thing is like I used to get really pissed off at it. And the one thing that's also an edge where it's like what can I do about it? So the only other option is Like get more creative, and that's a bit more abstract, but it's like okay, like it's time if other people can write this and get results, then I'm doing something wrong. I'm not at the level that I want to be at. What can I do to get to that next level and Eventually make it so that it would be impossible for them to copy me, which I don't think will ever become a thing? Yeah, but me working towards that at least Gives me that path to really just separate myself further in terms of the things that I write about.
Speaker 1:I Feel like the person that comes from on that, the closest to that, is maybe Naval, just because the things he writes it has such a Naval-esque. Yeah, down to the point precise yeah and I feel like if you're familiar with the ball and you know no balls content really well, you could kind of pierce out. Maybe not all the time, but sometimes you could be like that sounds like something the ball would say yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah so it's a very specific lingo, or like how he explains things. Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1:Is that something that you're trying to cultivate when you think about that next level?
Speaker 2:Is that like? Yeah, it's Because, like I, I feel like imitation is a part of the game. I think you have to. To an extent you have to get ideas somewhere. Like there's a reason I'm speaking. The words I speak right now is because I learned them from someone else. Right, so, copying aside, like I Truly admired Naval in his writing and that way he articulates ideas. I read the Almanac of Naval Ravacan and there's some like health advice that I disagree with, but his other stuff is very good. Who else I saw that you had Zach on. I really like the way Zach articulates his ideas Floor me, hi, chicks at me, hi Mm-hmm. Like all of this stuff just hits for me and it doesn't for other people and I see that as a sign when I kind of need to integrate that actualized org Jordan Peterson when he's off of his Like really stuff, yeah, or gender stuff to yeah but yeah.
Speaker 1:And so it's like pulling.
Speaker 2:That that's my thing is like for me to be creative, I have to pull from so many different resources so that something new can emerge which is like unique and original in a sense it's like novelty, it's novelty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, it's an interesting idea. I think that people have this view that Original ideas or just like a light bulb moment where it's like a ho, like philosophize in their room, walking back and forth, yeah, but so often it's connecting two ideas together from two different sources, or taking that thing that Jordan Peterson said and taking that thing that the ball said, and then Creating a line between them through your work. Yeah and I thought this is what you meant when you made the DJ analogy. I think I messed this up where it was my perspective when you originally said it. What I thought you said was creating content is like being a DJ, where you are taking a bunch of different songs or ideas from different people and then mashing it together into this new Beautiful song. Yeah, but you had a different perspective on it, right, so your perspective on it was you want to your favorite musicians. You start to a lot of times dislike them when they start to Deviate from the normal path of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's both, it's both.
Speaker 1:It's both so like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like well because they are like DJs are, or creators are DJs, but with ideas. I love that concept.
Speaker 1:It's good, huh, cuz it could so many people have an unknowing of what like to do, what to talk about, blah, blah, blah. And that just provides so much clarity of I like X, y and Z. Let me study them and put it together.
Speaker 2:Yeah and and like you can take that even further where it's like, in terms of monetization, like they usually don't make too much money from like their Spotify streams or the content they put out right, that's their content. But then when they go and they have a show or a tour, or let's say they have like they go to a seminar or they're speaking on something or they have Like a cohort or something of that case where they're attracting people to it, that's how they monetize and they're still kind of saying the same thing just in a better way cater to the audience, they're for a specific end result. At a concert, it's like to have fun and some people play like DJ sets, they play like party sets, whatever it may be. They sell merch. But in terms of that main idea, it is like as a creator, you are gathering this inspiration and then you are writing or piecing it together In the way of like a song or a good packaged up outcome that people like to read, listen to, whatever it may be kind of reminds me of what Hormozzi says, where he says Give away the knowledge and sell the implementation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I Mean those creators that Gave out all the secrets are always the fan favorites. Yeah like I. I did a recent podcast and I won't specify who, but they were selling something and they wouldn't talk about the content within the thing, because that's what they're selling. Blah, blah, blah. But the people who transcend or really Hit for people are the ones that just give away everything and they have almost like this servant mentality. Yeah, have you thought about that?
Speaker 2:a lot like a. Lot of people ask me like okay, like what do I sell and what do I talk about and what's the distinction between that and there really isn't any like that. I Feel like it starts to make sense once you understand offer creation or what a good product or service consists of, which is Usually desired outcome problem that the person's facing and and then your product is the path to get there and your content is so much more diverse than that and it's usually so much more beginner level and what's in, what's in the course, is Probably not going to perform that well on social media. Like just by the nature of social media, you're usually not going to put like a paid course on social media in terms of content, because it isn't going to get seen that much and people aren't going to care about it. Where people care for what they pay for and and like I cared the most about the information I was learning when I paid for a course on it and I wanted to go through it like if there was a free course I'm sure there's milt thousands, probably more than thousands. A free course is online. That just do not get any love, simply because people aren't Putting the intention and energy into it with the form of money to receive it. There's a lot of psychology that goes on when it in terms of like buying a course. Now, at the same time, you have to think of why people go on social media, like on YouTube or Twitter or Instagram it really depends on which one. But let's say, like Twitter and Instagram, you're not really going on to learn. Some people may be like okay, I'm, I hope I learned something today, but usually they're just opening their phone, they're going on to Instagram and they're scrolling and creators have to cater to that, because that's what the app is for Is for some form of entertainment or like edutainment. So I'm providing harsh truths that people like to see. I provide some unique business insight or something like that. But me just like putting out a course without Any way of like roping them into that or something of that nature. It just isn't going to work out. On YouTube you can do that, but at the same time, you have to grow. You have to cater to why people are getting on the app. You have to lead them through the levels of awareness. Once you study, marketing and sales, which a lot of people seem allergic to, doesn't make sense. Like that's Going to teach you like how to Differentiate the two of like what deserves to be a product and what deserves to be free. Content is the difference between traffic and the actual product, and how you generate one and send it to the other.
Speaker 1:I love that distinction and even what you briefly said about a lot of free courses not getting on the app Love because they're free. Yeah, and I actually been thinking a lot about this, because If you were to turn let's take atomic habits, because it's such a simple analogy If you were to take atomic habits and turn it into a course and it would and it would sell for, let's say, a thousand dollars, but it was all the same Knowledge of atomic habits people would have 10x, 100x better results from the course because of the perceived value of it or they have like the sunken cost of that. Oh shit, now I have to really study this thing versus the book, which is 10 bucks, 15 bucks and they're like they can just coast by. It's very interesting how the price tag Set alongside things indicates a lot of times how much you will learn from it. Yeah, that's what a lot of people do like.
Speaker 2:I kind of have specific names but like, let's take a coaching program, that's like ten thousand dollars like a very esteemed coach. Like they have the branding down, they have everything down and it's not money related, it's like performance related 10,000 bucks. I Guarantee and I'm pretty sure I've seen it is the same information that's in their book, because that's their life work. Like, what else is going to go in there? Right, there's only so much that you can write on performance, flow etc. And so the book people are reading it with that $10 mindset, with the $10,000 thing they're going into that, with the $10,000 thing they're going into that with I better make this work. Like it's like me going to college, like I can't fail out. But then of course, there's going we're saying this where it's like they're gonna get 10 times better results. The people that we're gonna get results are going to get results. The people that weren't ready to invest in whatever it is they invested in at the wrong time, they're probably not gonna get results, but Eventually they may become the person that will be able to get the results from that specific thing. So, in terms of like the percentage of people that would get results from a $20 course, those people would get a lot more results from, let's say, the $1,000 course.
Speaker 1:I don't know why this made me think of this, but when you are ready to receive knowledge or you're starting to embark on this path and you Find yourself Outgrowing a lot of the people around you and it just seems like I don't know. My working theory is that that time where you've Outgrown your current friends but you're not at the level yet when you want to be, where the other people that you actually want to be surrounded by are at, and you almost have this little In-between period could you relate to that and do you think that that's something that's almost mandatory for people?
Speaker 2:Yes, my friends were very Accepting of it, like my best friend, devin, is now my editor. Like he was very like, supportive of me throughout that. But I Don't know if it was only like Devin was very rare with this. But people would throw like backhanded comments where I don't think they had bad intentions but at the same time it would like hit you and be you'd be like Like this is so new to me, like I'm trying to do something outside my comfort zone, like you're somewhat hitting me while I'm down. Yeah, you have to go through it. But you eventually learn and those friends either stick around or they don't.
Speaker 1:And how big role do you think living with other creators played in your success?
Speaker 2:I don't know yeah like it was a very good experience to live with Dakota and JK, but we really did like non creator things together where it's like I'm. I'm a fairly introverted guy and I wouldn't say introverted, but I like being alone when I'm doing certain things, whether that be at the gym or when I'm working, etc. I like my alone time and so when I was living with them, all the work I was doing, like I was out of the house, I was away from them and we only did a few things together. We talked business here and there, but it was just nice to see that they're normal people too and they like doing the same things. They like going out to eat and just like talk and be normal people and Go on a walk and go out sometimes and whatever it may be. It was just good to have that like-minded group of friends when they just had that similar mindset right. There wasn't many problems that sprung up because we were all Acting towards the same goal and mission.
Speaker 1:It's funny you say the answer. It wasn't what I expected what I expected was that the Tightened feedback loop of living with other people who got it would improve the quality of your work, if that makes sense to you. So by having Dakota and JK right, there could be like yeah, what do you think of this tweet? Or what do you think of this X, y and Z, and then, in turn, that Tightened feedback loop makes everything slightly elevated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could see that being a thing, but I'm kind of stubborn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't want people to read my stuff. Well, aside from like the audience, where it's like I Rarely send posts for feedback to other people just because it's like I want to write it and I want to post it like I Want to have, I want to have my own feedback and learn for myself whether it does well or not. So that may have played a role is I'm just stubborn in that regard. Are you someone who, who has a good sense what content is gonna do really well, yeah, yeah like I know when it's gonna do bad, to where all all straight have like four weeks where I know I just need to post and I'll post it. And I've gotten okay with the fact of like, okay, this is gonna get between this amount of likes and this amount of likes or this many views, and I post it anyways because I have to, just by nature of consistency and me knowing that power. But yeah, then when ideas start flowing, I'm like, okay, these ones are gonna hit, and that usually goes on for a few days. But yeah, it's usually like 80 20 rule mm-hmm where you put out 80% garbage and then 20% good and you're known for the good. The garbage usually doesn't get much attention and that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:So what is like the difference between that too? It's just quality of ideas for you.
Speaker 2:It's quality of ideas and like how they're, how they're conveyed. There's a lot of things that can go into that, like a writing course, where it could be like the confidence of the idea, like how, yeah, like how confident are you Saying it? Whatever it may be, whether or not it polarizes people and sometimes you don't even know, like whether or not something is gonna polarize people. Or I posted just like simple Productivity advice and people get like crazy about it in the comments and I'm like this is insane, like I had no idea this was gonna see this much controversy. So and then like in terms of hooks, like you can, you can like craft a very good hook with like statistics, numbers, big problem, big benefit, exaggerated points. But if it just falls into place, like if you just write a good hook by nature of the idea, then it that's usually when it hits Mm-hmm. But you can of course, like Reach a baseline level of engagement just by paying attention to how your hooks do, how you're structuring the content, whether or not it's actually like an applicable idea to someone's life. But yeah, there's a lot you can do. But over time you kind of just realize what does good and what does bad for you and your baseline slowly improves. Like what is bad to me now it was like exceptional to me at the very beginning, right, but I think it's garbage right now. But I know that it's necessary where, as I said, the 80, 20 it's like the 20% good does not exist without the 80% bad. Like you just have to get it out and keep ideas flowing. That's where I feel like a lot of people go wrong. Is there just not Okay with getting the failures out that actually allowed the success successes to exist?
Speaker 1:I've been thinking a lot about how to have better ideas. They're like almost living a creative life in order to Get those better ideas, because within the past six months and I said, okay, I'm gonna start creating content you start to realize like the quality of your ideas and the Depth that they hold isn't as deep as you have when they're in your head. Yeah how do you? I Think I can kind of think about how, how you're gonna answer this, but how do you come out, come up with better ideas?
Speaker 2:I Exposed myself to new perspectives. That's, that was my answer. Yeah, that was what I thought you'd say. I have to. And yeah, at first it was unintentional or it was it was out of curiosity, right yeah, where that's how you do it we're being on Twitter or social media in general. Actually, you can get really locked into these Ideologies very quickly, especially my main example is always like fitness and diet, because I got locked into like all of them, like throughout my entire life. It was like I went vegan for a bit, I went carnivore for a bit, I did if ym, which is like if it fits your macros. What else did I do? Just like certain food choices that people tell you are better than the other, over the past like two years it was and stress, ancestral, repeat, like all the things, like all the esoteric health tricks, and Eventually, like I got to a point where things were getting overloaded, like with seed oils and how, like crazy people get about those To the point where I'm like, okay, this is like there's clearly something wrong. This is clearly over the line. Like a lot of people are Taking this to the extreme. I need to prove myself wrong, like I have to prove to myself, and find the research because my mind is biased towards seed oils bad. So I need to reverse that and Get a healthy balance and realize that I'm not gonna die If I have like a drop of canola oil or whatever it may be, because I hadn't, like you, look around and there are perfectly healthy people that are eating that and like you, you're just ignoring reality. If you can't accept that, like it's not only the obese people, I can talk about this all day.
Speaker 1:But, that's.
Speaker 2:That's the point right. There is like you have to like realize that you're locked in this specific set of ideas and kind of drop yourself into this environment where people are talking about different ideas and you may get locked into that. But at the same time you do that, enough you like become aware that you're locked in it. You break out, become aware that you're locked in a breakout. You eventually note all these truths in the middle, or principles from them all that actually lead to progress in health, business, whatever it may be, that you try a bunch of different business models and eventually you realize, okay, these are the levers that I have to pull to get to make money. Then in health, you try a bunch of different diets. You're like, okay, these are the levers I have to pull to lose weight or gain weight. In fitness, I mean like lifting same thing. You try a bunch of different programs. It's like, okay, I Like these levers and I'm gonna stick with them in the way that I want to and that I find more enjoyable. So that's another way to create like enjoyment in life. Is that like, once you expose yourself to more and more perspectives In all areas of life, you give yourself more room to create a way of doing things that you enjoy more than just like a typical Keto diet, carnivore diet, whatever it may be. You get to create it for yourself in a way that fits you best and experiment with it.
Speaker 1:And the power in taking all those different perspectives is. We know how strong the placebo effect is Right. So if you're so locked into, see, dolls are bad for you.
Speaker 2:Probably gonna be pretty damn bad for you.
Speaker 1:But if you're finding counter evidence to that fact, for the time when you're out to dinner and you and you can convince yourself oh, I don't really have to worry, there's. There's nice to back up that this is the worst thing in the world. Yeah, that placebo effect. It translates to everything and even taking a business example, the belief you take into things has such a tangible effect on the outcome. Yeah, so, dan, if you were to have a conversation with your past self, what would that conversation look like? If it was you talking to someone like you at the start of this journey five years ago? What?
Speaker 2:what is something that we haven't talked about today that you think you'd want to stress to them a big thing would be to encourage the quote-unquote shiny object syndrome and to Because that's curiosity, that is curiosity like it's to encourage that, but under the frame of shiny object syndrome.
Speaker 1:Just be like.
Speaker 2:I'd be like shiny object syndrome is your key To what you're trying to do right now, because that will expose them. That's like that's applied curiosity in my eyes, because You're building something. So it's shiny object syndrome, but with the caveat of you're trying to build something and you're acquiring the skills that allow you to build that thing. And Usually you're going to be building things where the skills are transferable, where that's actually the case for a lot of people in jobs as well. As, like you have skills that other people could use in their business or that you could use in your own business, or that you can help people learn from a different angle, where I Would have difficulty thinking of an option for this but a lot of time. Like you can just teach a skill right, you don't have to apply, you don't have to be like everyone else and Be like oh, this skill will make you a million dollars in a year. Usually people just want to learn the skill. Like I've bought countless courses on web development without any promises of getting a job. I already knew that was a potential if I learned web development, and so if I go and I create a course on whatever skill that I have, like just a basic digital marking skill, without saying, oh, this will help you build a million dollar business. I Feel like it's helped pretty well. That was kind of off topic, but that's what I would tell them is just encourage continuous skill development and building At least an hour a day, preferably the first thing in the morning, with whatever skills necessary. I mean with whatever skills you acquire and whatever it is that you're trying to work towards. Like in the past, I Would just spend hours in my room doing digital art and I didn't get any results from that and I don't do digital art anymore. But what I'm doing now isn't that different from that and I only know that now. But all of those skills and all of that time did contribute to like what I have now. I do not think there is a path where someone can go from zero, where they are now, to a hundred exactly where they want to be, in a straight line, like that's just not gonna happen. You have to kind of zigzag and do the shiny object stuff To get to the point where you realize, okay, I picked up these puzzle pieces along the way, now I have the image, let's build the thing.
Speaker 1:So you think Follow the natural curiosity versus Saying, okay, I need to be very good at sales marketing. X, y and Z. Follow the natural tide of things or Be a little more disciplined with okay, these are the meta skills. Let me try to figure out how to become competent in those realms.
Speaker 2:You'll have to learn them anyways. So I think it's yeah, it's having the understanding that I should Do what I want. This was a tweet of mine at one point where it's like Do what you love, but learn marketing and sales so you can actually make a living from it, and it's that's what I mean. That's the advice I would give is like do what you love, but understand if that you're not seeing results from it, you have to either learn a new skill, do something differently, or or like change or pivot, or do something that includes what you love, but in a way that is actually monetizable or something that you can sustain long-term. That's the only logical thing to do, like if you're not seeing results within six months to a year, that says a good time frame or you don't see any way of making seeing results, then something has to change like you have to find the way that will allow you to make Sustainable income with that specific thing or with the thing that you love. There's a way to do it. Mm-hmm like there has to be. That's the thing is. There is some way. That's called creativity is like how do you Create the way to do what you?
Speaker 1:love, and the internet just opens that up for almost everybody. Yeah, and so it's marketing and sales. Those are the two meta principles, are there?
Speaker 2:more Marketing, sales, writing, speaking. I feel like. So, if you want to go even more meta than that, it's like psychology, metaphysics, human nature, and that's what marketing, sales, writing, speaking are. It's that applied, it's more digestible, it's more applicable to Actual, like commerce and what you're trying to do. So I say go straight for marketing, sales, writing, speaking. Then if you want to learn psychology, metaphysics, metaphysics, etc. As Like just an interest, you'll notice so many different patterns between those two things and it will lock it in that much further. But Writing and speaking are the medium. So how you get it in front of people with media? So like writing tweets, writing newsletters, writing blogs, writing YouTube scripts, writing whatever, speaking, speaking on podcasts, on YouTube videos, etc. Just Like how you communicate. And then marketing and sales are the message. Or how you like craft that right, like craft that writing and speaking into a way that is actually impactful to other people and that goes into everything people think it's just like, oh, when I'm writing a sales promotion or when I'm on a sales call, no, it's when you're writing the curriculum for your product. It's when you're writing the email, like to the client after you've got them. It's like just persuasion and impact in general. It's the tweets you write, it's the newsletters, it's just how you Frame certain things that you say on a podcast so that they hit harder. Right and I'm not the greatest at this as a constant that you're developing the skill all day, every day, for the rest of your life pretty much. But those are two things that, when you like, those are the foundation of any results oriented skills that you learn. So those are like you're constantly learning those For a lot of your life and just picking up good lessons along the way that make them better. And Then you're choosing certain skills to learn here and there, to apply those skills. So that's like graphic design, email marketing, whatever business model someone told you to go into, like e-commerce, whatever it may be, they all work if you have the backbone of writing, speaking, marketing, sale. And then beyond that, there's applications which would be like traffic mechanisms, offer creation and I Would say social media, but that's kind of track traffic mechanism. So like learning how your results oriented skills and the meta skills marketing, speaking, writing, sales how those apply and like coincide with social media, traffic mechanism, offer and and then that's Things will click if you start to just immerse yourself in that information and the bleed over between writing and speaking is An interesting one that I've heard you say one time.
Speaker 1:That hit me. It was. I think you said you were on a podcast and you were talking about something, and then you, you just made like a quick comment saying, yeah, I don't know, though I need to write on that a little more and I just think that that understanding of writing influencing your speaking Is that something that you've Came to really understand or learn through Writing is like oh shit. Now I'm so much more articulate when I talk about these ideas Because I have this based on knowledge from writing about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like I could be a better speaker if I practice the skill of speaking. I haven't yet, but I know that I being able to articulate one point comes from having a knowledge of 100 around that point. So in order, like, I need a knowledge of 100 to create a point of one in my articulation. So when I have Hundreds of thousands of words written in my newsletters and book, that is so much I can pull from, if the words are correct and the questions are right or whatever the conversation is, and I actually have access to those, that I can piece them together into something that Not many people would say like it would be hard to replicate unless they straight up replicated it from what I said. So, yes, but I do feel like for me, speaking lags a bit behind that. That's why I say I need to write about it more and really make that conscious is because that's what I need to do. But one thing I did notice is that, like Alan Watts, from listening to a ton of his lectures and then reading his book I don't know if his books are transcribed from his lectures or if he's just very good at stating this, like he knows his books so well that he can state them like in his lectures or state certain lines because that's how he has found he can best articulate the idea. So he remembers that and he knows that it'll show up time and time again. And so by saying that time and time again, it sticks with people. It's like I don't have an example, but someone goes on a bunch of different podcasts. They're usually saying the same thing over and over, but people still listen to it because it's impactful and they need it conditioned into their head.
Speaker 1:So you told me off air that you started running, and running is something I've heard a lot of people say has had a very positive impact on their writing. Have you noticed that at all?
Speaker 2:It depends on how hard I go, where I've noticed, like if I'm pushing myself like so, so, so hard beyond zone two, beyond zone three, like for extended periods of time, like I feel stressed the rest of the day, like there's no way around it either, where, like I know that I overworked myself and I just feel like anxious and stressed all day. But if I'm in like a comfy zone two and actually doing like 30 minutes of running, then yeah, I do and I feel like I have a lot more energy to like do more throughout the day. So yeah, I do feel like it impacts my writing. It definitely makes me a clearer thinker and really wakes me up in the morning.
Speaker 1:That exercise has such a profound effect on all that stuff, and so I have three Twitter questions here from your followers, and the first one is the transformation from web designer to thought leader. Did you envision that? Was it intentional at all?
Speaker 2:It's definitely not intentional, because I don't see myself as a thought leader or like. I guess that's what I am, but I feel like that's a weird term.
Speaker 1:It is an interesting, weird.
Speaker 2:I don't really like it, but it's what I am, I guess. No, it wasn't. I wouldn't say it's intentional, but it's something I like, always enjoyed watching and consuming content from and thinking like maybe I could become that someday and I think I conditioned myself into it just by that and like again identity, like me consuming the information or the inputs that led to the outputs that led to that outcome without me even knowing it.
Speaker 1:And the next one. It's slightly similar to the shiny object syndrome, but I think it's a bit different, which is since blowing up has it been hard to protect your time?
Speaker 2:No, yeah, I've always. I feel like I've been very I don't know the word for it the protective of my time, like since the beginning, because I've always heard that's a problem for people. It's going back to the where we started with observing society like nobody has time, Like that's always the excuse I don't have time, I don't have this, I don't have that, I'm working so long hours, and so that was always at the top of my mind for something to avoid, and if that ever did become a problem, I had to implement a solution to it as fast as I could. That's where four hour workday philosophy came in. But in short, no, it's like I have my time dedicated to what I need to do to see progress and outside of that I'm not doing it. Like if business guy texts me at 6 pm, I'm not checking it until after my morning work block. Like when I allow myself to check that if a friend texts me, then yeah, I'm texting them back, but other people they get ignored until it's like time for them to be responded to.
Speaker 1:That's how you keep yourself fresh, right Like that's the only way to make it sustainable.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Do not disturb is on 24 seven. Yeah, it's like I can only check when I'm intentionally checking those occasions.
Speaker 1:What do you see as the future of Twitter? We haven't really talked about Twitter too much in this episode, but I know it's something that's fundamental to how you got your start and how has it changed since writing the two hour work week? I mean two hour writer.
Speaker 2:Since writing two hour. Since writing two hour writer, it hasn't changed much at all. Like people make it seem like it's changed because they like to talk about the latest and greatest algorithm changes, but nothing's changed. Like according to or what I. I like to pride myself in the fact that I into our writer in whatever course that I have. I take like the meta approach like human nature over algorithm, where it's like you can study the algorithm all day long, but if you don't have a hook, if you don't have an idea, high performing idea, et cetera your content is not going to do well. And if you don't have the basic understanding of influence and how to make your ideas impactful, it doesn't matter what the algorithm does Like, you're not going to do well. So, in terms of what's changed since I made that, they introduced long tweets. That's it. That's the only thing that I've noticed personally.
Speaker 1:And then actually like, based on the stuff you taught into our writer, that like plays into it really well, yeah, it does.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. That's the main thing, like I know. Like, before you fall into the trap of like, listening to what people say about how the algorithms changed and how it's affecting you, just like, observe what's going on on social media. Like, if long posts do so much better, then why, when you scroll down your timeline, does, like a sentence, long post have thousands upon thousands of likes? Like, just open your eyes and see and confirm for yourself in your direct experience whether or not what people are saying is true or not, and don't let it. Listening to it is what's going to actually make it a reality for you and it's going to influence the way you write and you. Changing that and leaning away from your edge is what's going to lead to worse results. So there's that. In terms of the future of Twitter or X, I have high hopes. I don't know. I'm optimistic. It's a social media platform. They're really all the same Human nature, above all psychology, understanding, like the ins and outs of good writing, speaking, marketing and sales, and you can really dominate any social media platform rather than studying the tactics of specific social media platforms, which are very helpful, but you need to adapt to the times with them and have the fundamental principles to back them.
Speaker 1:Is there anything we haven't talked about today that you want to talk about? Anything on your mind?
Speaker 2:Not really Not that I can think of. It was pretty extensive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate you doing this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate you having me man, that was good man.
Speaker 1:This episode was brought to you by Maxi. Maxi is a goal setting, productivity and mental reprogramming tool that uses AI to help you start to take control of your mind and become an alchemist of your own reality. So head over to mindsetdesigncom, forward, slash alchemist and use code Ryan to try Maxi today for just $1. Link in the description below you.
